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 Post subject: Proton Pack Vent Effect
PostPosted: March 13th, 2013, 7:51 am 
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Still working on mine, ran into some issue with cable lengths and mounting. I should have a venting test video up tonight if all goes well. How long did you set the actuator switch timer for? I need to be able to calculate how long a can will last me with the Mighty. Before, I was doing 1-2 second sprays every now and then and the can would last me a few events.

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PostPosted: March 13th, 2013, 8:32 am 
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nstevic01 wrote:
Still working on mine, ran into some issue with cable lengths and mounting. I should have a venting test video up tonight if all goes well. How long did you set the actuator switch timer for? I need to be able to calculate how long a can will last me with the Mighty. Before, I was doing 1-2 second sprays every now and then and the can would last me a few events.


What are you using for your venting "steam"? I hope its not canned air. . .

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PostPosted: March 13th, 2013, 8:38 am 
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mburkit wrote:
What are you using for your venting "steam"? I hope its not canned air. . .



Yes it is canned air, and has worked fine for the last year. I've been to about a dozen events without any issues, check out my build thread if you are interested in how I set it up.


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PostPosted: March 13th, 2013, 8:41 am 
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That stuff can be dangerous, especially if it's discharged while upside-down. Whenever I hear about "venting" a pack, all I can imagine is some little kid getting the vapor full in the face.


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PostPosted: March 13th, 2013, 8:52 am 
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ChapterMasterTu'Shan wrote:
That stuff can be dangerous, especially if it's discharged while upside-down. Whenever I hear about "venting" a pack, all I can imagine is some little kid getting the vapor full in the face.



This is true, however a venting demo is typically not done when someone is near the pack. Common sense would dictate that one, but there is always someone out there who will prove your "vapor in the face" statement.

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PostPosted: March 13th, 2013, 9:23 am 
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I thought canned air was just compressed air, but it turns out it does contain lots of nasty sounding chemicals:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_duster

That being the case, maybe I should tell you about an idea I've been researching...

When I heard folks were using canned air, my first thought was that using those cans would probably get expensive because they wouldn't last long. I figured they had a tiny gas cartridge in that giant can, just to make it look like you were getting more. And I figured, if they could produce that effect with compressed air, why couldn't I produce it as well, perhaps with another gas?

Well, the first thing that came to mind was a CO2 tank from a paintball gun. I just happened to have one 9oz tank, and found it fits quite well in that section that extends off he cyclotron. The nozzle ends up by the point where the bumper connects, right by the n-filter. They also make 4oz tanks which are half the size.

Anyway, I then found some youtube videos showing how CO2 gas alone can be used to make fog:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFknnTkmnT0

Of course you would use up the tank in two seconds if you went for that volume of fog. And there's the issue of how to depress the paintball tank pin to allow the gas to escape. But for both of these there's a solution as well. They sell regulators for paintball guns with little pressure gauges that allow you to dial down the pressure.

The final piece of the puzzle is how to allow the gas to be released, and for this I found a solution as well. It's called a solenoid valve. And they can run off 12V. Normally closed, apply 12V and the valve opens.

Vent the output to your n-filter, and you'd have a safe, non-macguyver way of adding venting to your pack, and the CO2 tank ought to last a lot longer than the canned air and refills are easy to get. And you won't have to fiddle with getting different size and shapes of can to work.


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PostPosted: March 13th, 2013, 9:31 am 
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I was looking into this exact thing as my v2.0 venting rig. The half size paintball tanks fit perfectly inside the booster tube and would allow for easy disconnect and refill. I was looking for a regulator that would fit where I needed it to, and I was hoping to adapt my actuator to open and close it. I was hoping to have a prototype in a couple of months since I was going to start selling venting kits.

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PostPosted: March 13th, 2013, 9:43 am 
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Why not just use canned smoke?

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PostPosted: March 13th, 2013, 9:49 am 
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Canned smoke was tossed around in my thread I think, but we were going for inexpensive and readily available without having to wait for shipping. Ultimately I ended up pursuing a paintball tank due to the capacity and the inexpensive refills. One of the road blocks on the paintball tank ended up being able to find an inexpensive solution for opening and closing the spray nozzle without having to make something from scratch.

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PostPosted: March 13th, 2013, 9:54 am 
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jackdoud wrote:
Why not just use canned smoke?]


That stuff reportedly uses the same stuff as a fog machine, and hangs in the air:
http://www.ohgizmo.com/2009/06/12/smoke-spray-in-a-can/

I don't think cons and bars would appreciate you using that inside. The Co2 they might be okay with. I brought dry ice into a bunch of bars one halloween and didn't have any issues.

Oh and I don't know if that is flammable... probably not, but it just occurred to me that the canned air may be flammable. So you might want to be careful if you use it in places where people are allowed to smoke or you may end up with a flamethrower.


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PostPosted: March 13th, 2013, 9:56 am 
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The only issue I could see with using CO2 is condensation.

I remember there being quite the build up on the warmer days out playing paintball.

You could get a neoprene wrap for the tank and that should help... in theory.

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PostPosted: March 13th, 2013, 10:39 am 
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Improper Use of Canned-air Products Can Cause Flash Fires and Injury <- - - click on and read.

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PostPosted: March 13th, 2013, 10:59 am 
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mburkit wrote:



That bulletin you posted was from 2008. I believe the majority of compressed air cans, if not all, are now non-flammable. This is the particular one I use:

http://www.harborfreight.com/10-oz-ultr ... 67494.html

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PostPosted: March 13th, 2013, 11:13 am 
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Even if they are now non-flammable, doesn't change the fact you can get frostbite from them and/or chemical burns.

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PostPosted: March 13th, 2013, 11:50 am 
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I don't think there's any danger of frostbite with how he has it set up. The gas has time to expand and warm up inside the n-filter. Frostbite would happen if you sprayed it directly on your finger for some period of time.

As for chemical burns, I don't see any warning on the can about that and I kinda doubt that it has anything like that in there, seeing as it's designed to be dispersed in the air.

That said, be careful, and I personally recommend using CO2.


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PostPosted: March 13th, 2013, 1:14 pm 
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Improper Use of ANYTHING Can Cause Injury... and I am sure I can find an article on the internet somewhere about it.

and since I have seen nstevic01 pack and been there when he has used it along with our 6 year old son... I think its pretty safe. Would I put my face up to it? No. But I also would put my face up to a lot of things something is spraying out of. Thats just stupid.

Stick you face into a spray of air freshener or hair spray... I sure thats not good for you either. Natural section at its best folks!


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PostPosted: March 13th, 2013, 2:29 pm 
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Cans of compressed air are essntially cans of R-134 refrigerant. The same stuff the air conditioner in your car runs on.

Do not use these for the pack venting function. Not only is it irresponsible... it is dangerous for the people around you. Despite looking really awesome, who says you have full control over it and your surroundings at all time?

What if you were at a crowded convention and wanted to demo your sweet venting function. You turn around to show a crowd of people, and a child walks behind you without you noticing. Boom your sweet effect has now turned into a chemical burn into the eyes of a child, who will probably suffer from temprorary blindness or a myriad of other problems.

Just because you and your kid knew not to go over there, doesn't mean it will be safe for a passer by. It is not safe. It is incredibly stupid and naive to think it can be done repeatedly without incident.

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PostPosted: March 13th, 2013, 3:03 pm 
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PostPosted: March 13th, 2013, 3:16 pm 
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A kitchen is a controlled environment that the general public doesn't wander into. A kitchen in a busy restaurant would be a horribly dangerous place for someone who isn't supposed to be there.

Roadways are, to some extent, organized. There are lanes, signs, signals and big frickn' vehicles on it that are generally easily seen. Yes, someone could run into the street but cars can be avoided and aren't unexpected.

A pack that shoots potentially dangerous chemicals out of it can not be anticipated. Even most adults have no experience with it and would be surprised by it, which is part of the reason for doing it. Unless the prop will never be removed from the owner's home, packs are generally built for use in public and inherently uncontrolled environments. Yes, you COULD and SHOULD be careful if using something like this in public but the "reward" of showing something like it off is not worth the risk involved in its operation. Kids may love Spaceballs: The Flamethrower but that doesn't make it safe.

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PostPosted: March 13th, 2013, 3:18 pm 
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There is a big difference between putting something in a microwave and pushing start..... and modifying that microwave to do something that you deem to be neat.

Or.

There is a big difference between getting in a car and driving somewhere.... and using that car to drift around corners, do burnouts, drive up on two wheels.... or do things because you think it looks cool.

Any other examples? I can keep going.

usfmichele wrote:
But I think if used correctly and with caution (just like everything else you do), you are fine to do it.


What part of turning a can of refrigerant upside down and spraying it everywhere because it looks cool... what part of that is using it correctly? In fact. I'm pretty sure it says right on the can to never use the can at an angle... and to keep the can upright at all times. That's misuse... not correct use.

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PostPosted: March 13th, 2013, 3:39 pm 
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About the compressed air- how about firing your neutrona wand in public? People have epilepsy, and if they look at certain lights on your pack, it could cause them to have a seizure. But we still take our packs out in public and show off the lights. If someone doesn't have enough common sense or control over their child to keep them away from a $2,000 piece of equipment, they shouldn't be taking their child in public.

I say go ahead and install the compressed air- just be mindful of your surroundings, thats all.

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PostPosted: March 13th, 2013, 3:51 pm 
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A limited number of people suffer from epilepsy and they generally know about it and take precautions against triggering it. Anyone can be hurt from compressed air.

And if you think people won't touch something or allow their kids to touch something because it "looks expensive"... I don't even know how to finish this sentence. Do you live on earth? Have you met the human race? I know a guy with a $5000 Boba Fett costume that had a jerk punch him in the helmet because he thought it'd be funny.

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PostPosted: March 13th, 2013, 4:08 pm 
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dude while it may not be "toxic" in the traditional sense, there are a bunch of little crackhead kids around here that huff that stuff, so i cant be all that safe either,

btw on an unrelated note all this talk of smoke , has inspired me to research my own (cough) "special" pack,, shotgun anyone?? not by the time im done... ;-)

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PostPosted: March 13th, 2013, 5:29 pm 
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Haha! ^


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PostPosted: March 13th, 2013, 6:42 pm 
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That stuff is also extremely flammable. Granted most cons are indoors and don't allow smoking, but if you hit that too close to a lit cig. it'll become a flame thrower.

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PostPosted: March 13th, 2013, 7:00 pm 
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Along with the whole "smoking trap" thing...

Agent K sad it best, " People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." Basically, it seems like a cool trick to you, but the lowest common denominator will over react and drama will ensue. Tricks like this are best shown off amongst people that will actually pay attention, and left out of the public. Over the years, I've seem enough rampant stupidity to make me realize that if someone can point a finger and cause trouble, they will.


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PostPosted: March 13th, 2013, 7:49 pm 
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Fyi a lit cigarette will not ignite canned smoke. Actual sparks or open flame are needed for this to occur, at least not the brand we use.....we use canned smoke to test smoke detectors attached to alarm systems....having said that i still wouldn't use it for a vent effect on a pack...its an irritant to the eyes and skin and would be just as bad if it hit a kid in the face....

A can of compressed air doesn't seem like it would be that bad as long as the can were not upside down....and is probably the easiest to implement into a pack since it comes in a pre made canister with a release mechanism. If it is that huge of a deal though you could engineer a container that you could pressurise with air with an air compressor.....the release mech might be a little tricky since you are probably using a car door lock actuator to vent the pack....if you could make that work you would have something that is easily recharged for cheap and safe to all around you when you demo it. It wouldn't have the life span of canned air but you would probably still get a night or two out with it depending on how many times you vent the pack and how much you pressurise the container.

Perhaps a small length of pvc capped with a pop off valve? You could probably safely put about 20ish lbs of air on that...(20 psi of air exerts roughly the same force as 80psi water on the interior of the pipe...keep that in mind as most store bought pvcs burst rating is tested in water pressure)

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PostPosted: March 13th, 2013, 7:58 pm 
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lunchbox739 wrote:
A can of compressed air doesn't seem like it would be that bad as long as the can were not upside down....


Which is what they're doing.

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PostPosted: March 13th, 2013, 8:00 pm 
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lunchbox739 wrote:
Fyi a lit cigarette will not ignite canned smoke.



I was referring to the use of the canned air

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PostPosted: March 13th, 2013, 8:21 pm 
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While I was reading this whole thing, a thought occurred to me, everyone is bringing up the toxicity and flammable aspects of this, I I'd like to add that you're dealing with compressed air ,c02, whatever. What if something were to come loose and turn your N-filter (or any part of your pack) into a projectile?
it could seriously hurt someone. Don't get me wrong, in theory it's a cool idea but in a packed convention hall with people trying to get a closer look at your pack , it seems like an accident waiting to happen to me.

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