View new posts | View your posts New Guidelines for Buyers & Sellers.

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Sellers

I have been hearing a lot from buyers about communication with sellers, delays and setbacks.

I am starting a new set of guidelines that all Buyers & Sellers on this site must conform to.

- All Sellers must have the item they are selling in hand and ready to ship, unless otherwise noted.
- All Sellers should ship their item in a timely manner.
- All Sellers must keep open communication with their customers.
- All Sales must be conducted via Private Message or Email. No listing your PayPal account and asking people to send their money. You must acknowledge that you will be able to ship an item to a customer before they pay for it.
- All Sellers should notify when an item is shipping or has shipped (unless it was shipped immediately at payment).

If you are a seller and you do not have the item ready (for example it is made to order), you must give your buyer an accurate ship date that is no more than 30 days from the payment date. If you have problems, or delays... you must inform the buyer and explain truthfully what the problem is. If a problem arises, you must give your buyer the option for a refund. If problems arise, as a seller you should not attempt to take any more orders.

If the seller does not.... as a buyer, you should open a dispute with PayPal (if you paid via PayPal) and post a topic in the Feedback forum. If complaints are recieved that are not resolved, action will be taken which could range from losing Selling Priveledges to Banning from the site.

Buyers

There are certain things you can do to ensure that you are getting what you paid for.

-Keep in contact with the seller.
-Ask when the item will be ready / will ship.
-Pay with Google Checkout or PayPal.
-File a dispute if it takes longer than agreed upon without communication (PayPal limits these disputes to 30 or 45 days, or file a charge back).
-Don't be a pest. Remember, some sellers can't get your part done if you are bothering them every day.
-Leave truthful feedback. This isn't eBay... if something went wrong.. let the seller know, and if need be.. let everyone know in the feedback forum.
-Don't pay until you feel like you can trust the seller.
-Don't back down. If you agree to pay an amount for custom parts.. you need to do it.


Buying and Selling items on GBFans should be straight forward and stress free. Take an example from the GBFans shop, which only sells items that are instock and ready to ship. Keep communication during your transaction & treat the customer with respect. Just because you already have their money does not mean you are done... it is not over until the buyer gets their parts.


No one should be waiting more than a month for any part (unless it is Halloween time, or a custom run of parts). It is absolutely rediculous to hear people waiting more than 6 months for a part.

I'm glad some rules are being put out with some consequences defined.

I have seen a lot of things being sold that I can't agree with the process. Especially upfront payment, if you want them to agree to binding contract for payment upon completion or a small down payment so your inital materials are covered (and thus sell it later with out being way in the hole) I can see that since none of this is face to face.

But never has anyone ever payed me upfront to paint their house.

The problem with passed deadlines without contact and explanation is another major issue I've seen.

I think that is a very good analogy.

Sellers who have parts ready to go.. that is awesome. That is perfect.

Sellers who are making things to order should Work for the Money... they should not get the money and then expect to work. So many times I have seen Sellers collect the money and they just slack off and take their time... that is a huge problem.

All sellers should push themselves to be the best.

A good formula for you guys who do make things to order, or do set things up in runs would be to take example from Exoray or Namebrand:

- Collect a list of people who are interested.
- Get Deposits if you need to.
- Produce enough to cover interested list.
- Collect Money.
- Ship!

There really needs to be a short amount of time between the collect money part and the ship part.

First off I will preface this by saying I'll fully aware I'm entangled in this mess...

It's a two way road, if you pay for a pre-order (show interest) the buyer needs to understand the item isn't ready to ship, the buyer needs to understand that delays do happen some controllable some for scene and other uncontrollable... It's part of the 'buyers' risk that they assume when they prepay for an item that isn't ready to ship... Yes things are different when you purchase an items that is supposed to be on hand and ready to ship, but even then some slack sometimes never hurts as long as it's within reason... A little give and take...

With that said I'm going to use my pack shells as an example as I know it's a sore spot for me as well as some of my customers...

1. The pre-sale price reflected a 20% discount for the inconvenience of it being a pre-sale, not a deposit but not full price either... This discount was my way of 'paying' you for the risk you are taking by pre-payment...

2. Nearly all the pre-sale money collected was used to purchase and secure the necessary materials, supplies and equipment over the course of the run... Trust me or not at this point I'm nearly breaking even of this pre-sale, no labor payments to me for my time instead all out of pocket expenses...

3. If you re-read the pre-sale thread I clearly pointed out that temperature very well could play some part in delays and adversely effect the materials...



4. I had ZERO idea that the temperature would play such an important part in the delay pushing things way behind schedule... My mistake and miscalculation and I fully except responsibility... I suspected it might have some effect but I never would have realized it would be such an obstacle, it was for the most part an unforeseen circumstance that was a kick to the groin...

5. As soon as I realized I was having problem and was just a little behind schedule I posted in this thread to notify everyone of the problem http://www.gbfans.com/community/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8550&start=151

6. At this point the buyer and seller are both screwed, both have their hands tied and it's a mess, the buyer is out the money and the seller can't deliver... I will fully admit that at this point it's bad, but if you continue to read the thread I just didn't give up I continued to post progress as I attempted to resolve the issues http://www.gbfans.com/community/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8550&start=202

7. One might argue that updates were irregular or lapsed for a few days, well at least in my case the cause of this was delays in sourcing new materials or equipment to complete the project... Many of the substances I'm using are classified as hazardous and have to be shipped at a premium, the current UPS and FedEx HAZMAT charge is $20 over and above regular shipping, most companies though upcharge $25 or $30... They only ship hazardous materials ground it's not uncommon for me to wait 2-3 weeks for a shipment to arrive, and the HAZMAT charge makes required testing of new materials quite costly...

8. Fact, I have nearly filled all pre-orders already with failed shell layups that I tossed in the trash... I would be done with pre-orders already if this all went smooth... But it didn't...

My point is that #@$!@#$ does happen, it's life the world is not perfect but IMO keeping an open line of communication and showing that the seller is simply not sitting on the money or slacking off is IMO nearly as justified as delivering the product within a deadline... Updates and open communication are essential... Sometimes the seller is getting the other end of the poop stick, at the same time... It's a bad thing all around when ti goes bad and as easy as it is to always blame the seller, it's sometime out of their control...

I think it should also be said that buyers shouldn't dick sellers around, whether it be for an in stock item or a parts run. Especially with parts runs though because usually prices are determined by how many people are in and there are a number of repeat offenders who are more than happy to say they are in but no where to be found when it comes time to pony up.

Most of my parts runs have exceeded 30 days, mostly because it takes a long time to collect money, and then get the shops to do small jobs in a timely manner. If I wasn't able to pre-sell then my parts runs simply wouldn't happen as I don't have the money to finance the parts even in part. If I did then I would be charging MUCH more for the parts and then no one would be happy because I'd need the profit to cover the investment.

Other than that I think pretty much all that has been said is very valid and it is good to see some rules in place or at least accepted rules writ down for people to see.

It ALL boils down to open honest communication from BOTH sides.

Every hobby forum has the same issues, always has always will. The only way to solve it is for both parties to conduct themselves in a professional manner and make good on their respective ends of the deal.

AJ...perhaps you could set up an e-bay style section of the site that both buyer and seller could use for GB only related items, and accurate records can be kept that way. You could also set down certain other rules, such as whether items are FOB shipping or FOB destination (FOB = Free on board. If there is no insurance on the item being sold, FOB shipping puts the burden on the buyer, and FOB destination puts the burden on the seller.) You should probably formalize something like that on this site, rather than just laying down rules which may be hard to enforce (depending on the situation). Since transactions are and have been done through this site, if any disputes arise, you can be held liable. If you can't set up an a seperate ebay style area for this, you might want to consider banning sales through your site outright...and make everyone conduct all business off site.

How would AJ be liable? You can't hold a newspaper liable if someone places an add for something then rips you off, a forum is no different. Some people will rip other people off no matter what anyone else does to prevent it. Rules of conduct merely give people less excuse to plead ignorance to their own poor behaviour.

I agree with John, if someone is going to rip you off they will do it...rules or not.

Rules just keep honest people honest, just like speed limits.

AJ is doing all that he should need to do, people just need to stop f****g it up for others who follow the rules. PERIOD!

He's liable in the same way that ebay has been held liable...and a newspaper can be held liable for that, actually. It can be argued that AJ would be liable because he allowed a transaction to take place through his site, and said transaction became a rip off. If someone started threatening someone else on this site (as in a real threat, not a pissing match) AJ would be liable if he just let it continue on. I'm not saying AJ is likely to be sued by anyone on here, I'm just saying he could possibly set up something that would cover his ass more. I've read news articles before about websites, other than ebay, getting into trouble for allowing things to happen (or at the very least, not trying to stop them). Setting up the rules he has in this thread helps, but I'm saying if he set up something more formalized, he might better be able to cover his own ass as well as make transactions between people on here easier.

If I were him, I would set up, like I said before, something ebay-ish. I wouldn't make it a bidding section, but closer to his own shop. I would also set up a seperate paypal account through that section, that way it can be set up so that a buyer pays ahead of time, but the seller doesn't receive the money until the items are either shipped or received (or however he'd want to set it up). I would also lay down a user agreement for any transaction, and that any disputes must be dealt with through arbitration (because, unlike mediation, it's legally binding). Whether or not AJ has the time to do all that, or the ability (like if he can find someone to draft up legal language for him), I don't know. It's just a suggestion. Hell, AJ could even set up a commission system if he wanted to, to make some extra cash for himself...though that might affect just how many people would go through formalized transactions.

That isn't going to happen.

Infact.. if I did that and people ripped someone off than I actually WOULD be liable.

That's why I said to make it so that any disputes HAVE to be dealt with via arbitration. That makes you virtually invincible. That means no one is allowed to sue anyone else. They have to resolve the disupte through a neutral arbitrator, and any decision this person comes to is legally binding on both parties.

Sounds like way more work than is worth it.

That is why PayPal has the ability dispute, and buyer protection.

By the same logic if someone threatens me in a mall, I could hold the mall liable for allowing it to happen?

Sales on prop forums are "use at own risk", if AJ was to try to formalize the transactions he'd be opening himself up to being far more liable because he'd be the arbiter. The best method is "caveat emptor".

As for AJ's liability...

1. If AJ actively participated in the deception, aka was getting financial gains, and continued to allow it to happen without interaction he MIGHT be liable...
2. If AJ was informed of the situation and continued to allow it to happen while trying to cover it up or simply ignoring it, he MIGHT be liable...
3. If AJ was totally in the dark and didn't monitor the forums at all, he ISN'T liable...
4. If AJ was made aware of a problem and takes steps to avoid it or correct it, he ISN'T liable...
5. If AJ makes it clear in the ToS that the transaction is between the buyer and seller exclusive of the website, then he ISN'T liable...
6. If AJ takes an active roll in the transaction by over sight or monitoring, he MIGHT be liable...

There are safe harbor laws in effect that limit the liability of the hosting party in regards to public forums and member actions beyond their control... Just like a newspaper isn't liable if you buy a lemon car in the classifieds, or the grocery store isn't liable if you have a bad deal from the public bulletin board in the airlock... They only become liable if you can prove they had previous knowledge and did absolutely nothing to prevent it...

The best action to eliminate liability is honestly to distance yourself as far as possible... And if a problem does arise and he is notified he should take at least some action, that can be as simple as forwarding the concerns to the parties involved... And at that point nearly all liability is removed from him... Just look at what ISPs do when the RIAA notifies them of illegal downloading, they simply send a nasty gram email telling the party they were notified of possible illegal actions and request you to to stop it, it's only after repeated offenses do they step up and possibly cancel your account...

You know what the really silly thing is about all of this is that dispite AJ's valiant efforts to educate people about bad sellers and having a "blacklisted" seller list people STILL continue to purchase from those individuals and then have the audacity to come back and cry foul. Seriously people, you need to look after your own affairs.

Know the seller you're dealing with
Pay with Paypal
Pay for a tracking #
Pay for insurance
File a claim if the item is not received in a reasonable amount of time or agreed timeline
and
don't back down

And above all "Caveat Emptor" as Namebrand said

He wouldn't have to be the arbitrator, and arbitration would take away any liability...agreeing to it prevents you from being able to sue at all.



Since this would be a civil type issue, AJ would have to prove his innocence to a >50% probability. It could easily be argued that he at the very least should have known something was going on. I think he should ban all transactions made through his site entirely, but that's just me (aside from his own shop, i mean). Just do an internet search of crazy civil lawsuits that were won by plantiffs that never should have been allowed to be brought to court at all.

Nope, please re-read what I posted, there are safe harbor laws that come into effect in this case, safe harbor laws that bar liability... End of conversation, if you are in compliance with the safe harbor rules then the case against you will be barred... So the 51% liability can never come into play against those protected by the safe harbor law, they are immune...

Please review Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, it made a clear and decisive rule that owners of a interactive computer service, are NOT liable for the actions of third party members...

Please review Gentry v. eBay, Inc., it established that eBay was NOT liable for fake auctions on the site...

Please review Goddard v. Google, Inc. it established that Google was NOT liable for fake ads from third parties on it's site...

I could go on, but the courts have made it very clear that 47 U.S.C.A. § 230 removes the liability from owners of interactive computer services by the users of the service...

Quendor, why do you seem to be so concerned and adament about people not selling on this site?

There are plenty of honest, decent sellers who contribute to this community and help others realize their dream of a prop replica, why do you seem to want to spoil it? looks to me like you're the only one who has an issue with it.

This site is no different than any other fan forum on the internet, they all have their issues.

If selling stops on this site again then I will be more than upset about it (not upset at anyone, merely upset that it has happened). I have ordered a number of things from here now from different people. So I can give a buyers perspective. So lets see...

I ordered parts from irri (a *&$! ton of parts), he always ships fast (one time he took a two days, big deal! he kept me informed the entire time). I have had one of his shipments stopped at customs for 3 or 4 weeks. Did I go complain to people? No, I pmed him and he got back to me in less than 12 hours, probably within an hour. We exchanged pms over the matter many times just me saying that it wasnt here. Guess what... it arrived. My life did not end in this time period nor was it ruined. He kept me informed, so I was put at ease, plus I had a tracking number for it.

Now on to nostrill or how ever his name is spelled. He shipped fast and kept good communication. I got two things from him. Not much else can be said.

Namebrand. I got his legris straights and nycoil banjos from him. I was not in the preorder, though I did follow it. He kept people informed, but could not offer as much info as some people would expect because he was not machining the parts! Hell as far as I can tell he didnt even ship the damn things. He told people what he knew when he knew it. Now I emailed him some time ago to show interest in getting any left overs. He emailed me when he was ready and I had reserved some parts, then he disappeared for a bit. Granted I didnt pony any cash up that was fine. He came back and now I have some awesome parts that may never get produced again. I also followed the rub on transfers and refunds were offered there, but still people bitched and moaned instead of requesting a refund.

Now onto exoray, the one that I did really spend money on before I got. What can I say here? It has been..... just fine. Thats right, just fine. He said that he would be shipping them some time ago. I am not sure when, but it was a month or two ago I guess. He has a substantial chunk of my money, am I bashing him? Hell no! He has a life and two nice looking dogs. I am happy to be a part of this preorder. I knew that with the weather turning as it was that I would not see it for some time. I am not mad, pissed, perturbed, or anything otherwise. He has kept us informed. Updates have been coming as they happen. He has stayed up all fargin night to take a pic once the sun came up of the damn shell. He had a delaminating issue not too long ago, rather than shipping out those shells and saying "awe hell they are good enough, piss on em" he is getting it right. The only feeling that I have here is excitement. I am excited as all hell. I just want to have it in time for the game release, well before that so that I can finish it.

In my opinion none of these things that I have discussed here have been bad. All of my experiences have been pleasant and I have no doubts that they will continue to be. Now I have seen some bad experiences happen here (goggle frames anyone?).

Anyways, these new rules being put in place will severely hinder the ability of members to do these custom runs. Without deposit I am sure that namebrand would not have bothered to do the legris and nycoil and same for Flynn with the shells.

Oh wait, I did think of a negative thing about each of them. Irri is still making a bumper (hope he gets it right soon), namebrand ran out of legris banjos(my own dumb ass fault for not getting in on the preorder), nostrill has not offered up his custom angle brackets (still interested), and flynn still has yet to get the shock mounts made(ready and waiting man, ready and waiting). That last sentence was a joke btw.

People need to realize that these people have a real life to worry about.

-Frank

Frank,

Custom runs / pre-orders.. etc from reputible users are fine. They just need to be run better in some cases. The rules/guidelines shouldn't hinder any good seller from selling their parts.

Was not directed at you, so if it seemed that way then I am sorry. That was more of just a general thing to get out there. It just seems that there has been alot of bitching and moaning on here recently over small things where refunds were offered and buyers didnt take them.

I'm not concerned with it in the manner you think I am. I merely look at it from a legal standpoint on what I'd do. I'd either set things up in a way similar to what I've described, or I wouldn't do it at all. I've noticed how AJ has put a disclaimer up, which I think helps a great deal more than just setting down rules. I know most people play by the rules, and it all works well, but I also know there are those few assholes out there. My concern is merely for the safety of the site.

I'm afraid you're going to get assholes no matter what you do or where you go. It's a fact of life. The trick is to not let those assholes spoil it for all the honest buyers and sellers because that would be a travesty.

I think AJ is going about it the right way.

I'm glad that there are some guidelines being applied.

From a buyers perspective sellers should be better about communicating with their buyers. I cannot count the number of times a seller has just dropped my item in the mail and assumed that it will just show up at my door. There is no notification of shipping, no tracking number, no nothing. I personally think that it is a careless move to just drop an item in the mail and walk away. Then if for some reason it gets lost (which has happened to me) the seller has to either issue a refund, send me a replacement or get a negative review from me with no chance of future business. If I have a tracking number and the item does not show up at my door, the seller is no longer the problem and I take it up with the delivery service. I think sellers could save themselves a whole lot of headache when dealing with buyers if they would simply provide some way to track the item that has shipped. At the end of the day though these are props we are dealing with, not a life support system. Delays and setbacks are fine with me so long as the seller does not drop off the face of the earth when a deadline comes and goes. Buyers should not have to hassle sellers to check in on the status of a project when it runs long. I am speaking of course in the most general terms possible and in no way am speaking of a specific seller or project. This is just taken from my years of experience purchasing items on several different sites.

As for deadbeat buyers I think there should be a list similar to the blacklisted sellers posted for buyers. If a person shows interest in a part and then backs out, they should be added to the list along with how many times (possibly within a given time frame) they have backed out on a parts run so that sellers in the future would know not to count on that person to make the run happen. I understand sometimes that things happen and situations are unique, but I often wonder about the circumstances. A lot of these parts runs are not expensive (less than 100 bucks). While I am not one to tell someone how to spend their money, it is my personal opinion that if you are spending the last 50 bucks to your name on a prop part and have no emergency fund whatsoever that you need to re-examine your priorities. Even more infuriating is to see a person back out on a parts run who "needs the money for their sick grandmother" and then two days later drop that amount of money (or more) on someone else's item. Then the seller is either stuck sucking up the extra cost or delaying the REAL buyers until the empty slots are filled. Those kinds of delays should not be held against the seller. Having the aforementioned list would assist the seller in making more informed decisions IMO.

This is just my view on the matter but I trust that ultimately these rules will lead to better buyer/seller relationships.

AJ- I think one thing to add to the Buyers list is for buyers to have cash in hand when saying they will purchase an item, or want to buy an item. If you don't have the cash, don't post a WTB or say you'll take an item.

Well if I may add my two cents in on this matter. I believe that with any transaction , "Buyer Beware" would be good advice. Yes, we are spending our hard earned money, sometimes quite a bit of money on these items. As for myself, still fairly new to GB Fans, I was interested in Light Kits. I didnt know where to start. So I READ the forums, GOOGLED these sellers and made an educated decision on who i felt most comfortable with buying from. I opened the lines of communication and started a dialouge with this seller until I was comfortable enough to send payment. I used Paypal to even further my protection and peace of mind. For the most part we are all decent people. Of course, now and then, there will be bad sellers, bad buyers, and the unsuspecting souls who get ripped off. That is a chance that we all take when dealing with others. If you're unsure about a seller or buyer... ASK someone!!! Post it up and Im sure you will receive enough responses to make your own decision that you're comfortable with. Common sense and "Gut Feelings" go a long way.

Thanks...

My oppinion/comments:

As a seller of a few basic parts i occasionally have a period where i get overwhelmed with orders of parts, like now for example. All my spare time is taken up by making parts.

Everything i sell i have to make by hand to order in my workshop at school where i work as a teacher. I don't get any parts externally made by anyone else and the only bits i can do at home is soldering the components onto the PCB boards i've made during a lengthy process at work.

If someone requests a part i will always try and start making the part before i request the money but i know i will get the part out as soon as i possibly can. This may be a couple of weeks sometimes as i only get a bit of time after work to make parts and if there is anyone around i have to stop in case i get caught, the boss would sack me if he knew i was making money using the schools equipment (even though i pay for the materials i use).

If i have a lot of work to do at my job then making parts has to come second i'm afraid and I'm not going to stop taking orders though if i have a back log as i'll lose too many orders. A lot of orders come by reccommendation and orders are like buses - Nothing for ages and then loads in a few days.

That said a few people sometimes tell me they have a con or party to finish a pack for and therefore i will try my hardest to get the part out sooner. I think a few weeks is acceptable to wait for parts sometimes, especially if they are hand made and take hours to make. Providing the seller keeps everyone informed and is honest, If someone asks where their part is i'll tell them if i'm busy at work or have lots of orders or couldn't spare a few hours one evening because i had a parents evening/other event.

Basically I provide a few parts that i think will help people to keep on Propping and loving ghostbusters and i make a bit of spare cash which helps me to do the same. I know people are parting with their hard earned cash and that said i will be as professional as possible but It's not my profession and until it is i have to treat it as a hobby at the risk of losing my proper job meaning that sometimes there is a delay in getting out orders.

Thanks for reading if you are still awake

JT(94)

If I ever do sell shells again (not for a few months at least) it will be when I have them already made and not pre-order. I don't like my buyers being frustrated with the wait and it puts stress on myself trying to get them done on a deadline.

another thing for sellers - DONT spend the money untill your client has the parts INHAND. its not really YOUR money till its all said and done.