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PostPosted: October 31st, 2009, 10:40 am 
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What do you think was the Gate on the Top of 555 Central Park West supposed to be: A Machine designed by Ivo Shandor, or a combination of architecture with “Gozerian” (i.e. Hethite or Sumerian) Artifacts?

I would say it was a Machine, which was powered by the Terrordogs.


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PostPosted: October 31st, 2009, 12:09 pm 
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Why do you think it's a machine?

I'd say that it was regular human architecture, which featured both hidden Gozerian architecture and artifacts/items designed to draw specific paranormal enegies, as indicated by Ray's remark about the columns having those unusual cores. and a deleted line suggesting the building had features that stretched down into the Manhattan bedrock to touch the ley lines.

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PostPosted: November 2nd, 2009, 1:06 am 
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Dr. Hubert Stantz wrote:
What do you think was the Gate on the Top of 555 Central Park West supposed to be: A Machine designed by Ivo Shandor, or a combination of architecture with “Gozerian” (i.e. Hethite or Sumerian) Artifacts?

I would say it was a Machine, which was powered by the Terrordogs.

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PostPosted: November 2nd, 2009, 1:38 pm 
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Kingpin wrote:
Why do you think it's a machine?


I think it's a machine, because of two aspects.

a) In Cap 6.1 the Script says:

Dan and Harold wrote:
"It looks exactly like the kind of telemetry tracker NASA uses to identify dead pulsars in other galaxies. […] Cold-riveted girders with selenium cores. […] The ironwork extends down through fifty feet of bedrock and touches the water table! […] The whole building is like a huge antenna for pulling in and concentrating psychokinetic energy."

Telemetry tracker, cold-riveted girders with selenium cores, ironwork, antenna – that's all about technology, like the description of machine parts.

b) In the movie, the Terror Dogs shoot a lightning bolt at the gate, then it opens. This leads to the conclusion, that the bolt shot by them is the cause and the opening of the gate effect.

So for my interpretation, I would say it was thought that 555 Central Park West is a huge machine, which was designed by the physician Ivo Shandor. To receive the necessary power for the gate his secret society purchased two "Gozerian" Artifacts: statues that sealed the two Terror Dogs. The "Bizarre Rituals" on the roof could then be interpreted as his (lately successful) attempt to break the seal on the statues and liberate the Terror Dogs.

Given, the lightning bolt was electrical, one Terror Dog would function as the positive pole and the other as the negative, providing the machine with an incredible level of energy.


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PostPosted: November 2nd, 2009, 4:43 pm 
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Why does the lightning have to neccesarily be electrical?

It just seems more mystical then mechanical, to me.

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PostPosted: November 2nd, 2009, 5:06 pm 
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The iron work in the Shandor building was a super conductive antenne designed for drawing in and concentrating spiritual energy. What you have here is a close mix of Summerian ritual architecture and forseen architectual advances by Ivo Shandor. The Shandor building was built long before any kind of developement of deep space telemetry trackers. While in a sense it could be considered technological but it was more old school ritualism, with specially designed foundations to enhance the effect.

The energy you described did not come from the harbringers Zuul and Vinz Clortho but was comming from the building itself. It was an effect of Gozer's powers that transformed the immediant area into something more appealing to the demi-God. Other pave way effects included the sky turning to darkness, the earth quake (an attempt at foiling the Ghostbusters) and turning the Keymaster and Gatekeeper into their terror dog avatars.

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PostPosted: November 2nd, 2009, 5:37 pm 
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Dan AKA wrote:
The iron work in the Shandor building was a super conductive antenne designed for drawing in and concentrating spiritual energy. What you have here is a close mix of Summerian ritual architecture and forseen architectual advances by Ivo Shandor. The Shandor building was built long before any kind of developement of deep space telemetry trackers. While in a sense it could be considered technological but it was more old school ritualism, with specially designed foundations to enhance the effect.

The energy you described did not come from the harbringers Zuul and Vinz Clortho but was comming from the building itself. It was an effect of Gozer's powers that transformed the immediant area into something more appealing to the demi-God. Other pave way effects included the sky turning to darkness, the earth quake (an attempt at foiling the Ghostbusters) and turning the Keymaster and Gatekeeper into their terror dog avatars.


wow, makes sense to me :)


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PostPosted: November 2nd, 2009, 8:39 pm 
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Not to totally hijack this thread, but I thought the address was 55 and not 555?

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PostPosted: November 3rd, 2009, 5:51 am 
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The real address is 55 Central Park West, but was bumped up to the fictional '550' for the movie.

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PostPosted: November 3rd, 2009, 6:10 am 
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Dan AKA wrote:
The iron work in the Shandor building was a super conductive antenna designed for drawing in and concentrating spiritual energy.


Spiritual energy is no longer really "spiritual" in Ghostbusters, even if Ray says so. Psycho-kinetic-energy (PKE) is thought to be a regular kind of physical energy, like radioactivity, light, sound, electricity etc. - Otherwise Ghostbusting would be impossible.

This way, an antenna drawing in and concentrating PKE is technological.

Dan AKA wrote:
The Shandor building was built long before any kind of development of deep space telemetry trackers.


However, that doesn't exclude the possibility that it is one, and in the script it is said so. Why shouldn't Shandor have been able to invent the tracker earlier than NASA, since he had knowledge on physics that was higher than institutional physics of his time? He logically has to know about PKE to construct a PKE-antenna.

Dan AKA wrote:
While in a sense it could be considered technological but it was more old school ritualism, with specially designed foundations to enhance the effect.


Reversed, old school ritualism would be thought to have worked not because of the rituals, but because of the antenna-like design of "Gozerian" temples. If we suppose this, it's closely to assume Shandor isolated these features of the original temples using scientific methods (ceteris paribus, inductive reasoning) to create a perfected variant. - Including new materials and the results of modern energy-research (radio-technology).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceteris_paribus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductive_reasoning

Dan AKA wrote:
The energy you described did not come from the harbingers Zuul and Vinz Clortho but was coming from the building itself. It was an effect of Gozer's powers that transformed the immediate area into something more appealing to the demi-God. Other pave way effects included the sky turning to darkness, the earth quake (an attempt at foiling the Ghostbusters) and turning the Keymaster and Gatekeeper into their terror dog avatars.


That makes sense. The Flash came from the building at first.

However, the Flash comes from the top-antenna and goes through the terror dogs, shooting at the Gate. The pave way effects could also be interpreted as being caused by the small Ghosts, that have already crossed the portal and terrorize the City.

69428scj wrote:
Not to totally hijack this thread, but I thought the address was 55 and not 555?


Correct. Maybe I'm too impressed by the size of New York. ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghostbusters_Building


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PostPosted: November 3rd, 2009, 8:44 am 
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Dr. Hubert Stantz wrote:
Spiritual energy is no longer really "spiritual" in Ghostbusters, even if Ray says so. Psycho-kinetic-energy (PKE) is thought to be a regular kind of physical energy, like radioactivity, light, sound, electricity etc. - Otherwise Ghostbusting would be impossible.


I'm not sure I follow, where was it stated that 'spiritual' energy is no longer spiritual?

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This way, an antenna drawing in and concentrating PKE is technological.


It doesn't always have to be, something can be mystically powered and still act as some sort of anchor/attractor.


I really think you're trying too hard to give it a real-world explanation, what's wrong with it being supernatural energy and otherworldly-architecture and rituals?

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PostPosted: November 3rd, 2009, 2:36 pm 
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Kingpin wrote:
I'm not sure I follow, where was it stated that 'spiritual' energy is no longer spiritual?

It doesn't always have to be, something can be mystically powered and still act as some sort of anchor/attractor.

I really think you're trying too hard to give it a real-world explanation, what's wrong with it being supernatural energy and otherworldly-architecture and rituals?


Oh, to explain that I need to be a bit philosophical, but it's really quite simple.

The Paradigm of Ghostbusters is the transfer of the Spook-Plot from Fantasy to Science-Fiction. Fantasy is defined by a metaphysical base of understanding and reasoning, while Science-Fiction is defined by its materialist equivalent.

Therefore, as classical Spook-Stories describe ghosts as supernatural entities, Ghostbusters describes them as part of Nature and its laws. These laws, i.e. relations of cause and effect, can be researched by the science of parapsychology, leading to technologies (Protonpack, Trap, etc.) based on the knowledge and usage of these laws. - If ghosts were supernatural entities, i.e. would not be determined by certain physical laws, it was impossible to imprison or even to harm them. In other words: "Ghostbusting" would be impossible.

"Spiritual", "mystically" however are conceptions that implicate supernatural properties, which contradict the shown Ghostbusters-Paradigm of ghosts being natural entities, determined by physical laws.

Of course, it is possible that I'm wrong on the question of the building. But in this case it would be a contradiction of Aykroyd and Ramis with their own premises, which would be bad. (And as nobody asks, and I already talked quite a lot, I wont precise why that would be bad.)


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PostPosted: November 3rd, 2009, 2:46 pm 
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I'm not at all entirely sure you understand what you're trying to explain.

"Spiritual energy" is "psycho-kinetic energy." Kind of like how "ectoplasm" and "slime" are different nouns with the same meaning.

At most the only technological part of the build is it is a massive grand scale divining rod. That was the kind of simplicity behind it.

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However, that doesn't exclude the possibility that it is one, and in the script it is said so. Why shouldn't Shandor have been able to invent the tracker earlier than NASA, since he had knowledge on physics that was higher than institutional physics of his time? He logically has to know about PKE to construct a PKE-antenna.


In the movie it says that it is LIKE what Nasa using to track dead pulsars in space. It is also touched on how absolutely insane Ivo Shandor was, this is reinforced in the video game.

To be honest, I think you're grabbing at straws here trying to over explain something and over word a very simple concept that is explained perfectly well in the movie using small syllables.

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PostPosted: November 3rd, 2009, 3:01 pm 
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I think I can see where he is coming from.

When we use the word spiritual energy we are describing an energy that we know nothing about. It is outside our understanding hence the name paranormal. But you can't build a science and business around something unknown. You couldn't build a proton pack and expect it to catch ghosts if you didn't fully understand what a ghost is and what it is made of and what the properties of ectoplasm are.

Through their research and scientific investigations the GBs have moved the theories of ghosts and pyychokinetic energy from parascience to science. The question then becomes; were they the first? Shandor was a brilliant occultist, doctor, and architecht among his other talents. It is more than possible he also discovered and understood the science behind the occult. If you know what you're doing then you're no longer dabbling with the occult. The mystical becomes the scientific. The spiritual artifact becomes technology, becomes the machine. Although it is more like a battery which I don't know if it counts as a machine.

It's really just semantics, arguing about different descriptions that still describe the same thing but I think it does kinda fit with the theme of Ghostbusters of turning the extraordinary into the mundane.

After all they defeated an all-powerful extra-dimensional god by simply disconnecting him from his battery.


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PostPosted: November 4th, 2009, 1:54 pm 
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Dan AKA wrote:
I'm not at all entirely sure you understand what you're trying to explain.


You can be entirely sure. Parapsychology is part of my studies at university, so I'm quite common with its tenets.

Dan AKA wrote:
"Spiritual energy" is "psycho-kinetic energy." Kind of like how "ectoplasm" and "slime" are different nouns with the same meaning.


Nope. "Spiritual" refers to properties of an immortal soul as an supernatural entity (not physically existent, whether in form of matter nor of energy). PKE is thought to be a physical energy generated by living organisms, like an electric eel or temblador generates electricity.

That's something totally different. I'm sorry I'm such a nitpicker. :blush:


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PostPosted: November 4th, 2009, 2:16 pm 
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You do realize that Ghostbusters is fiction, right? Everything spoken within the film is fiction.

As in fake. In the Ghostbusters universe Spiritual Energy and PK Energy are the same thing.

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PostPosted: November 4th, 2009, 3:19 pm 
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Dan AKA wrote:
You do realize that Ghostbusters is fiction, right? Everything spoken within the film is fiction.

As in fake. In the Ghostbusters universe Spiritual Energy and PK Energy are the same thing.


Ghostbusters is fiction. And it uses the term "PKE" in the same sense as I explained it. That's no contradiction.

Don't get unfair. :cool:


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PostPosted: November 4th, 2009, 3:27 pm 
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Unfair? :whatever:

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PostPosted: November 4th, 2009, 3:30 pm 
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I'm sorry man, but within the ghostbusters universe Physcho Kinetic Energy is Spiritual Enegery, they're one and the same within the Ghostbusters universe. This isn't a discussion about true fact or what unaccredited university has 'taught' you about parapsychology.

Sorry, I thought this was a fun little debate about a fictional world, not a internet debate where the first person to bust out "I study this in college so I know more about it" wins. Never mind that you're trying to argue the meaning of a word that HAS NO standard. There is no standard philosphy in parapsychology (it's why no one takes it seriously) there's loose ideas and looser theories with flimsy evidence to back it up.

Sorry man, if I had known what this thread was REALLY about, I think I've had might of stayed away from it.

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PostPosted: November 5th, 2009, 10:37 am 
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Kingpin wrote:
Unfair? :whatever:


Dan AKA wrote:
I'm sorry man, but within the ghostbusters universe Physcho Kinetic Energy is Spiritual Enegery, they're one and the same within the Ghostbusters universe. This isn't a discussion about true fact or what unaccredited university has 'taught' you about parapsychology.

Sorry, I thought this was a fun little debate about a fictional world, not a internet debate where the first person to bust out "I study this in college so I know more about it" wins. Never mind that you're trying to argue the meaning of a word that HAS NO standard. There is no standard philosphy in parapsychology (it's why no one takes it seriously) there's loose ideas and looser theories with flimsy evidence to back it up.

Sorry man, if I had known what this thread was REALLY about, I think I've had might of stayed away from it.


That's what I meant with unfair. Calm down. I'm not your enemy.

First, you it is said Ghostbusters equates "psycho-kinetic energy" with "spiritual energy", i.e. not an energy in the sense of physics. If we browse the Script and search for "spiritual", we won't find any reference on "spiritual energy".

http://www.gbfans.com/ghostbusters/script/
http://www.gbfans.com/ghostbusters-2/script/

Same about the movies.

That means the premise "Ghostbusters equates 'psycho-kinetic energy' with 'spiritual energy'" can't be prooven directly. - However let it be, and say it does so indirectly.

Keeping the theory, that PKE was no energy in the sense of physics, let's turn our attention towards the PKE-Meter. The PKE-Meter detects the presence and the quantity of PKE.

Script 5.1 wrote:
Well, let's say this Twinkie represents the normal amount of psychokinetic energy in the New York area. According to this morning's PKE sample, the current level in the city would be a Twinkie 35 feet long weighing approximately six hundred pounds.


How would it be possible (in Ghostbusters) to detect and even further to define quantities of psycho-kinetic energy with an electrical device, if it wasn't supposed to be energy in physical sense?


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PostPosted: November 5th, 2009, 12:08 pm 
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You can't equate fictional jargon with real life terminology. It's a movei device often called "techno-babble" it generally means noththing but sound super cool.

Hence all of your information in your "parapsychology" class means nothing, as your class is "real" ghostbusters is not. It's the main reason your entire argument is flawed, especially with PKE versus Spiritual. It's painfully clearly within the movie's diologue that Ray means spirits as in ghosts. He's dosn't mean the building is drawing people's catholic faiths, it's not drawing in hundreds of buhddists. It's drawing in spooks, spectres, and ghosts.

Just a brief watch over the movie and you should be able to come to the sound conclusion that it's is fictional, including all of the lingo, which you have read far too much into.

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PostPosted: November 6th, 2009, 9:00 pm 
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To give an idea of "techno-babble" here is a prime example.

Turbo Encabulator

Treat this like you would Ghostbusters.


*edit*
Hmmm, seems youtube embedding isn't working. I'll just post a link.

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PostPosted: February 16th, 2012, 11:48 pm 
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Usually science is classified as the understanding and explaining of "natural" phenomena, and technology seeks to control or influence "natural" phenomena. Supernatural phenomena are considered beyond the reach of science to explain or technology to manipulate. Thus, if ghosts or gods existed and if science and technology were able to explain and influence them, then they would be classified as natural rather than supernatural entities. However, in the world of Ghostbusters, science and technology are used to explain and control phenomena that are classified as "supernatural" even by the Ghostbusters themselves. For instance, the Ghostbusters mention "supernatural elimination needs" in their TV advertisement, and Ray orders Gozer to "cease and desist any and all supernatural activity." So where exactly is the boundary between natural and supernatural phenomena in the Ghostbusters universe and what determines that boundary? Is it just that supernatural phenomena are not normal (paranormal) whereas natural phenomena are normal?


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PostPosted: February 21st, 2012, 11:46 am 
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It's RETROTECH!!!

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