User avatar
By jackdoud
#275758
FYI, a lot of the "errors" your finding might have been intentional. Traditionally people will insert minor inacuracies into things they release in order to keep track of who's using them (and who may be selling them without permission)
User avatar
By valentino_42
#275777
FYI, a lot of the "errors" your finding might have been intentional. Traditionally people will insert minor inacuracies into things they release in order to keep track of who's using them (and who may be selling them without permission)
I've thought that, and it's quite possible. Some of the things I'm seeing just seem like copy/paste error, such as having each line on the eda box/booster tube label read "PB" instead of just the top one.

Another reason I'm pointing them out is because I know how much some users here strive for accuracy, and if the creator of the HPProps sheet intentionally used minor errors as some type of "signature", I think these users ought to know the labels they've been using all these years aren't as accurate as they've been lead to believe. Wow... that was a long sentence.

I do want to point out to everyone that I am in no way trying to besmirch HPProps and the creator of this label sheet, merely pointing out the inconsistencies I've noticed. Their label sheet set a high bar many years ago and has served people very well ever since.
User avatar
By valentino_42
#275792
I also think the top foil label, positioned near the booster tube needs to be resized. Wait till I get home and check my notes on the subject.
After I read this, I went back to the reference pics and compared the visible top of the EDA box to the dimensions Stephan has listed for it and concluded that you are correct. After scaling and comparing in Photoshop, I'm pretty sure the top label is actually closer to 4"x2.5" rather than the 3"x2.5" that HPProps has. I have since fixed the label accordingly.
User avatar
By valentino_42
#276208
Every now and again someone mentions that they lack:

a) the time
b) the money
c) the know-how
d) insert your own reason here

to complete the wiring for the particle thrower.

So as I was woking on these decals yesterday, I was trying to think of ways to help the folks that aren't striving for that movie accurate look, and I realized it would be really handy for them to have this:

Image

A partially lit bar graph decal to slap on a thrower.

I'm also including a black and white bar graph template for those that want to copy the vector artwork of it to print on a transparency for a more accurate graph.
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User avatar
By mburkit
#276733
I made some small revisions to the gun track stickers I posted.
Image
Image


Turns out the label under the S-hook on the gun track has a "F2" not "F1" like I assumed before. I also made them .375" x .75", which I feel is a more accurate size for them.
User avatar
By valentino_42
#276740
I made some small revisions to the gun track stickers I posted.
Image
Image


Turns out the label under the S-hook on the gun track has a "F2" not "F1" like I assumed before. I also made them .375" x .75", which I feel is a more accurate size for them.
I'm nearly ready to post "Revision 1" of my decal sheet. I've been looking over some reference material and I also noticed the "F2". I'm getting measurements fairly similar to yours, but I do have an issue with the color.

From what I'm seeing, it looks like the lettering is the same shade of red used elsewhere on the packs, but very very faded and with a layer of grime over the top. I could be wrong, but the few shots I see of it leads me to think this is the case.
User avatar
By mburkit
#276741
Honestly, the color I used was taken from the image I used as reference. They were probably either red or black and have heavily faded over the years. Since I didn't know what color they were originally, I just sampled the color they were in the image I have. That's the only reason I went with that brown color.
User avatar
By valentino_42
#276752
Ok, I've got Revision 1.0 of the decal sheet ready for download.
  • It includes, but is not limited to, the following:
  • numerous resizes of existing labels based on comparisons of reference photos, known dimensions, and Stephan's plans
  • color corrections, most notably on the filler plug and motor-synchronous decals. I've also adjusted the particular shade of red found on all labels
  • Winston's "Hero" thrower decals from GB1
  • R331 Clippard valve label
  • Gun track labels
  • bar graph sticker for those quick and dirty particle throwers
  • bar graph template for making a transparency
  • other minor changes
I wanted to include duplicates of some of the smaller labels as HPProps did, just because they are so easy to botch in cutting. Even taking these spare labels into account, I attempted to keep things all on a single sheet. This does mean space is tight, so these are best cut with an x-acto knife.

Before anyone attempts to actually put these to use, I'd like some community feedback on these. Take me to task on any spelling errors or inaccuracies you see. I worked hard on these, but I'm sure I still made mistakes. I want to correct them.

I just signed up for this file hosting service (uploading.com), so I'm not sure what the download limitations are, or what my bandwidth is. If it royally sucks, I can come up with alternate hosting. As mentioned before, ideally I'd like GBfans.com to host them when all is said and done.

Without further adieu: http://uploading.com/files/2f588bd6/pro ... _rev1.pdf/
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User avatar
By valentino_42
#276860
After sleeping on this and coming back to it this morning, I printed off a copy to see how I felt about it.

I had meant to include a second set of gun circles and it looks like I forgot... And I don't know if it's my printer or not, but the red I chose is printing a hair darker than I'd like. I'll revisit these issues in the next few days and post a new version.

Make sure to give me your honest impressions of these so I know what to fix!
By Filandrius
#276864
OK then. Here's what I think! :)

You really should remove the borders on the gun track labels. The labels were obviously cut by hand on the screen-used throwers (half-assedly, if I may add :P) so there shouldn't be any borders on them. Plus if you want to remove the borders after printing them your have to cut them even smaller than they are.

Just a thought. ;)
By Volguus
#276870
Howdy all, I needed to poke my head in and weigh in on the subject. First, I just took a look at Valentino's work and it is superb, and if the torch is to be passed, it couldn't go in a better direction. Having said that, I want to clarify some of the mystery/history about my original decals that have been mentioned in this thread. Valentino was quick to mention that his observations were objective and constructive, which I do not doubt, but here's a little photo from my archives that may set a few things straight:

Image
This is a reduced version of a file that was created when several labels were taken off a screen-used Pack and slapped onto a scanner. As you can tell, they are original silkscreened metal labels, and vectorizing those was a simple matter of tracing and/or typeface replication. For these labels:

- Bumper Label
- PPD Label
- HGA Label
- Gearbox Label
-"Filler Plug" Label

I guarantee their size and accuracy 100%. I never put any "tells" in these files. If I had, I would definitely have advertised them as such, but I'm one of those dummies that still believes in karma, doing the right thing, etc. It's why I'm not rich, today, of course! :)
The Clippard labels also fall into this 100% guarantee, because they were also drawn from scanned original labels.

Having said that, when I briefly got my own screen-used pack, I did indeed note that the bumper label was cut smaller and rounded at the corners, but the contents were the same size. Both were printed metal labels, so I have no explanation other than they may have been separate runs by the original label manufacturer.

The HGA label is meant to be cut down to the red edge, indeed a 1.25" disk. The black line around it is meant to be a "bleed area" so that if you don't cut it perfectly, at least the bits sticking out are black, not white, and less likely to be visible when mounted onto the pack! Same goes for the Bumper label. Similarly, the black circle in the center of the HGA label is meant to be cut away, and is actually the exact size hole of a standard handheld hole-puncher. Sorry, it was so clear in my head that I assumed everyone else would get it too. Not enough direction on my part, I guess.

For "derivative" labels such as the smaller/foil/trap/etc. versions of the PPD label, I admit to simply scaling them (aspect-locked) down to sizes indicated by Bugstomper's plans. This seemed like a safe bet, because who would have made whole new labels instead of scaling existing ones, especially in the early 1980s when it couldn't be done by computer?

Then, for a few other labels, I was forced to use photos I had taken of the Planet Hollywood (Wash. DC, R.I.P) pack. What I did with those was adjust/warp the perspective in Photoshop until it exactly fit the wireframe of Bugstomper's plans. This is how I arrived at the size of the EDA label, for example:
Image

In fact, it was this label that proved to me that working from reference photos is (no offense) not nearly as reliable as scanning the real label. But if the photo image of the whole top of the pack was stretched into shape to match BS' plans, it was, again, a "safe bet" that the label on that pack top would be largely accurate. Now, as to the "PB/MB" typo, my eyes popped out when I saw that because I distinctly remember catching that and fixing it years ago. Now I'm off to see which version of the file has been on my website all these years. Gods, I'm sorry, people!

There are other factors to consider as well. As I mentioned, all these labels were pre-computer and very likely made by hand-laying type, which easily allows for spacing errors, typos, etc. If I saw this on an original label, I replicated it, warts and all. Another factor is my DTP skills at doing this kind of work. All I can say is that I've been working with Adobe since before it was even available for Windows, and Corel Draw before that - so it's been my livelihood, more often than not, since at least 1990. Take that as you will. :)

Something I never stipulated about my labels because I assumed it was known - for maximum accuracy, some labels are meant to be on white (paper?) backgrounds, and some onto metallic (foil) backgrounds. Perhaps I could have been more detailed about that!

Anyway, I pretty much stopped working on these labels in 2003 when I threw them up onto my website. It looks as if more labels/references have been discovered since then and this most definitely warrants a renovation of this resource!

So that's about all I have to say about that. I fully agree that progress marches on and if someone does a better job at something than I can, I'd be the first to cheer him/her on. But I also want to make sure that progress comes honestly, so while I now see some mistakes in my work, I needed to clear up things that may look like mistakes but aren't. End of rant!

- Ken -
User avatar
By jackdoud
#276875
The blue label looks a bit light to me and I think I prefer the gun-track labels tan. The grey "caution-hot" label has some wierd spacing on the text but I'd have to look at reference to see if that's accurate or not. The bargraph overlays look out of scale compared to the 4-circle graphic next to them and the red triangles seem a bit large. I haven't checked anything against reference so I could be wrong but those are my first impressions. Overall it's a nice upgrade from the hprops labels. :cool:
User avatar
By valentino_42
#276899
Howdy all, I needed to poke my head in and weigh in on the subject. First, I just took a look at Valentino's work and it is superb, and if the torch is to be passed, it couldn't go in a better direction. Having said that, I want to clarify some of the mystery/history about my original decals that have been mentioned in this thread. Valentino was quick to mention that his observations were objective and constructive, which I do not doubt, but here's a little photo from my archives that may set a few things straight:

This is a reduced version of a file that was created when several labels were taken off a screen-used Pack and slapped onto a scanner. As you can tell, they are original silkscreened metal labels, and vectorizing those was a simple matter of tracing and/or typeface replication. For these labels:

- Bumper Label
- PPD Label
- HGA Label
- Gearbox Label
-"Filler Plug" Label

I guarantee their size and accuracy 100%. I never put any "tells" in these files. If I had, I would definitely have advertised them as such, but I'm one of those dummies that still believes in karma, doing the right thing, etc. It's why I'm not rich, today, of course! :)
The Clippard labels also fall into this 100% guarantee, because they were also drawn from scanned original labels.

Having said that, when I briefly got my own screen-used pack, I did indeed note that the bumper label was cut smaller and rounded at the corners, but the contents were the same size. Both were printed metal labels, so I have no explanation other than they may have been separate runs by the original label manufacturer.

The HGA label is meant to be cut down to the red edge, indeed a 1.25" disk. The black line around it is meant to be a "bleed area" so that if you don't cut it perfectly, at least the bits sticking out are black, not white, and less likely to be visible when mounted onto the pack! Same goes for the Bumper label. Similarly, the black circle in the center of the HGA label is meant to be cut away, and is actually the exact size hole of a standard handheld hole-puncher. Sorry, it was so clear in my head that I assumed everyone else would get it too. Not enough direction on my part, I guess.

For "derivative" labels such as the smaller/foil/trap/etc. versions of the PPD label, I admit to simply scaling them (aspect-locked) down to sizes indicated by Bugstomper's plans. This seemed like a safe bet, because who would have made whole new labels instead of scaling existing ones, especially in the early 1980s when it couldn't be done by computer?

Then, for a few other labels, I was forced to use photos I had taken of the Planet Hollywood (Wash. DC, R.I.P) pack. What I did with those was adjust/warp the perspective in Photoshop until it exactly fit the wireframe of Bugstomper's plans. This is how I arrived at the size of the EDA label, for example:

In fact, it was this label that proved to me that working from reference photos is (no offense) not nearly as reliable as scanning the real label. But if the photo image of the whole top of the pack was stretched into shape to match BS' plans, it was, again, a "safe bet" that the label on that pack top would be largely accurate. Now, as to the "PB/MB" typo, my eyes popped out when I saw that because I distinctly remember catching that and fixing it years ago. Now I'm off to see which version of the file has been on my website all these years. Gods, I'm sorry, people!

There are other factors to consider as well. As I mentioned, all these labels were pre-computer and very likely made by hand-laying type, which easily allows for spacing errors, typos, etc. If I saw this on an original label, I replicated it, warts and all. Another factor is my DTP skills at doing this kind of work. All I can say is that I've been working with Adobe since before it was even available for Windows, and Corel Draw before that - so it's been my livelihood, more often than not, since at least 1990. Take that as you will. :)

Something I never stipulated about my labels because I assumed it was known - for maximum accuracy, some labels are meant to be on white (paper?) backgrounds, and some onto metallic (foil) backgrounds. Perhaps I could have been more detailed about that!

Anyway, I pretty much stopped working on these labels in 2003 when I threw them up onto my website. It looks as if more labels/references have been discovered since then and this most definitely warrants a renovation of this resource!

So that's about all I have to say about that. I fully agree that progress marches on and if someone does a better job at something than I can, I'd be the first to cheer him/her on. But I also want to make sure that progress comes honestly, so while I now see some mistakes in my work, I needed to clear up things that may look like mistakes but aren't. End of rant!

- Ken -
I wish I had a little more time to write out a response, but sadly I'm shackled at my work desk. I just couldn't help from making a quick post though...

First, I'd like to thank you for all of the information you've posted and your insight. It's great to meet you! I'd also like to say that I in no way wanted to step on your toes with this project. You did some fine work with your label sheet.

The images you posted are most interesting... and it really hits home to me the fact that comparing one pack to another showcases differences in labels that one would expect to be of a set size. The motor-synchronous label dimensions I came up with, for example, I am very very confident in.

I'm also reasonably sure of the dimensions and proportions of the eda box label as well.

The filler tube decal is a mixed bag to me. It appears longer in photographs of actual packs than your label does, but you've demonstrated that you used a real label to scan, so it makes this a difficult one for me. Also, my dimensions for this label are partially based on Stephan's plans, so some degree of accuracy is thrown out the window on that as well. However, the real decals appear to have dashes (albeit small) where you seem to use dots. I'm sure there's a happy medium on this label that can be found.

I can also agree that using a single label sheet for all of these labels isn't really the best way to go... Some need foil backing, some don't. That further confuses things and compounds problems.

As I said, I'd like to go into some more detail on this, but I'm pressed for time. I'll revisit this thread a little later today.

Again, not trying to step on toes!

Thanks!
User avatar
By mburkit
#276903
First of all Ken, thank you so much for weighing in on these updated decals. Your .pdf has been the standard for years, and it is nice to have some insight into their development.

As for critiques of these so far. The red arrow does look a little big, each side of the triangle should be about .25". As for the bargraph graphic, I intentionally made it longer because I don't know the length everyone is going to make their opening for the bargraph for. Its larger so you can cut down. Even I had to cut it down for my own use, haha, so the circle decal that goes next to the bargraph looks to be the right size. I'd also not put a boarder around the gun track decals. I also feel they originally were black text faded to brown but that's just my opinion and I have no proof of that, hence why I just went with the brown/tan color on my originals.

All and all, I like it. Its taking steps in the right direction.
User avatar
By bobamatt
#276919
These are VERY nice, and it's helping me point out a few things that I missed too. I never caught the PB MB error either, probably because I saw it on Ken's and did that. It has been fixed now!

Thanks Ken for posting those scans above! Wow! I'm noticing some spacing/centering issues with my own as well.



Also, I wanted to address this....
Having said that, when I briefly got my own screen-used pack, I did indeed note that the bumper label was cut smaller and rounded at the corners, but the contents were the same size. Both were printed metal labels, so I have no explanation other than they may have been separate runs by the original label manufacturer.
I believe that all of the bumper labels were cut down from larger labels to fit on the bumper. From what I've seen, it appears that every corner is different, as if they were cut by hand with scissors, so rounded, straight or "messy" would still be accurate.

You can see the full bumper label, uncut, on the containment unit in GB1.

Image


Anyway, I wanted to say keep up the great work! Everything is looking superb!
By pchrisbosh1
Supporting Member
#276959
Great stuff man my only complaint would be the color on the guntrack stickers I like the more tan color but that was probably just due to age maybe a option for both would be good?

I'm going to Fed Ex Kinkos today to get a couple sheets of these printed. Playskool is back, Volguus is back.......what's the catch? Sounds like a conspiracy to me jk. Awesome stuff Ken thanks so much for your priceless feedback. I'll post some pics of how these print out when I get them.
User avatar
By valentino_42
#277002
The blue label looks a bit light to me and I think I prefer the gun-track labels tan. The grey "caution-hot" label has some wierd spacing on the text but I'd have to look at reference to see if that's accurate or not. The bargraph overlays look out of scale compared to the 4-circle graphic next to them and the red triangles seem a bit large. I haven't checked anything against reference so I could be wrong but those are my first impressions. Overall it's a nice upgrade from the hprops labels. :cool:
YIKES! I just checked this label out after I read your post, and you are right. Both letter I's in the bottom line like pretty funky. Something must have happened when I converted my text to a shape. I'll work on it tonight.
User avatar
By valentino_42
#277009
First of all Ken, thank you so much for weighing in on these updated decals. Your .pdf has been the standard for years, and it is nice to have some insight into their development.

As for critiques of these so far. The red arrow does look a little big, each side of the triangle should be about .25". As for the bargraph graphic, I intentionally made it longer because I don't know the length everyone is going to make their opening for the bargraph for. Its larger so you can cut down. Even I had to cut it down for my own use, haha, so the circle decal that goes next to the bargraph looks to be the right size. I'd also not put a boarder around the gun track decals. I also feel they originally were black text faded to brown but that's just my opinion and I have no proof of that, hence why I just went with the brown/tan color on my originals.

All and all, I like it. Its taking steps in the right direction.
I'll revisit the arrows tonight and I'll make the "illuminated" bar graph decal the correct size for slapping on the outside of a gun.

I'll leave the bar graph template as is to allow people to trim to personal taste.

It's a tough call on the gun track labels... I'll spend a few hours staring into my monitor at the pictures and try to decide. Either I'll blind myself and I can give up this whole endeavor or I'll have some sort of Vigo moment where the images will speak to me. Come to think of it, maybe all the guntrack labels need is a little kitten painted in...

Does anyone else have any insight on the gun track stickers?
By Filandrius
#277027
One thing that's been missed that we can now confirm, the red crank gen label is metallic.
I hate you! Nah, I can't stay mad at you. :)

Does anyone else have any insight on the gun track stickers?
Since they're so small, just include some red ones and tan ones (don't think those were black) That way everybody will be happy. :)
User avatar
By jackdoud
#277058
Not the best shot but I think if the labels had originally been black the words would have shown up even a little bit:

Image

Unless of course those are just blank stickers. That thrower's missing a hook but I don't think it's a stunt.
By pchrisbosh1
Supporting Member
#277075
One thing that's been missed that we can now confirm, the red crank gen label is metallic.
It's amazing how many new details I've noticed thanks to those awesome reference photos you guys took.

Just got Valentinos new PDF file printed at FedEx Office formerly Kinkos and and they came out great. For anyone who is interested in easy fast stickers for about $1.00 at FedEx Office you could get the file printed on there matte sticker paper. These aren't no bad quality stickers either, they don't run from water or bubble up and peel over time. These dollar stickers in terms of quality are just as tough as high quality vinyl stickers, only catch is they are not precut and no metallic stickers, but you could definitely buy your own laser printer compatible foil sticker paper on various sites and get it printed at FedEx office. Heres a pic of how they printed.

Thanks so muc Valentino for your effort and time in making these in such great quality.
Image
User avatar
By valentino_42
#277079
One thing that's been missed that we can now confirm, the red crank gen label is metallic.
It's amazing how many new details I've noticed thanks to those awesome reference photos you guys took.

Just got Valentinos new PDF file printed at FedEx Office formerly Kinkos and and they came out great. For anyone who is interested in easy fast stickers for about $1.00 at FedEx Office you could get the file printed on there matte sticker paper. These aren't no bad quality stickers either, they don't run from water or bubble up and peel over time. These dollar stickers in terms of quality are just as tough as high quality vinyl stickers, only catch is they are not precut and no metallic stickers, but you could definitely buy your own laser printer compatible foil sticker paper on various sites and get it printed at FedEx office. Heres a pic of how they printed.

Thanks so muc Valentino for your effort and time in making these in such great quality.

Just keep in mind that isn't the final version... but thanks for the kind words.

How do you feel about the shade of red used? Does it look good to you? I ran off a copy here at work on an HP Laserjet with plain copy paper and it seemed too dark...
By pchrisbosh1
Supporting Member
#277083
I think the red looks spot on from the reference photos we have available to us. Heres a picture in a lower light environment with the flash on.
Image

I think they look great for the first revision, I was just curious how they would print out and am well pleased. Look forward to the next revision with the noted fixes above.
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