By cray
#457626
I'm sorry in advance for what is probably a serious noob question, but I've done some searching, and I haven't been able to find a satisfactory answer.

What spacers were used between the ALICE frames and the motherboard on the GB1 hero packs?

I know about the half circle of agony that was the top spacer, and from what I've read there's still no definitive answer as to what it was made from. However, its the two lower spacers that I would like to know more about.

I know the packs were all retrofitted for GB2 with aluminum spacers, but for GB1, all I can see are black rectangles between the frame and the board. Maybe they're wood blocks or something?

At any rate, any insight would be greatly appreciated! Thank you all in advance for your help!
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By 910dohead
#457629
The half moon spacer could be made out of wood, but the others definitely aren't wood blocks. They are bolts with aluminum spacers. Here is an older thread that should be more helpful to you: http://www.gbfans.com/community/viewtop ... =2&t=30704

Also, not trying to be mean but I gotta point out the obvious and recommend you use the search function next time. Find a thread that's in regards to your question and post it in there.
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By cray
#457630
Sorry, you're right. I probably should have necromanced an old thread. I will be sure to do that next time. My apologies.

Secondly, about the spacers. Everything I have read in threads so far refers to the aluminum spacers. I just didn't see any in this shot and a few others. What should be a spacer looks like a black rectangle to me. I'm probably missing something. I just thought I would ask about it to see what's out there. Sorry about the trouble.

Image

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By wardarkfox
#457648
The aluminum spacers are what is used near the bottom of the pack, to connect the alice frame to the Mobo.

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This pic is found in the sony lobby reference section, page 3.

If you can't find aluminum spacers, you can purchase nylon ones and paint them to get the look.
As with the 1/2 moon spacer, I used a hockey put and cut it to the correct dimensions from the thread in the proton pack forum
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By cray
#457658
Huh. So they used the aluminum spacers on the bottom even prior to the GB2 retrofits? Interesting.

Thanks for setting me straight, and sorry for being such a noob!
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By 910dohead
#457677
Last night I was watching the 4k blu-ray to try and locate a scene where you can see the spacers. I grabbed a few of the best screenshots using my DVD copy.

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This is a scene of Egon just before the Ghostbusters enter Dana's building to battle Gozer. It's probably the most straight angle of the frame to the mobo that I could find. It's also one of the clearest. You know, it does look like there's something more there than just some spacers. Also, it's too high to be a blend with the switchcraft plate (which you can see just below).

I was starting to get a little annoyed by not being able to find a clear shot of the spacers. That's when I discovered this scene:

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It's the scene where the flames from Stay Puft are climbing up the sides of Dana's building and into the faces of the 'busters. If you pay attention to Ray's pack, you will see that there might not be spacers there at all. It does looks like it may be a piece of wood?

Close up:
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Granted, these above screen shots are from my DVD copy and not of the 4k blu-ray. So, I downloaded my 4k copy and took these:

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I'd also like to point out that Egon's Hero pack (the one Profiles In History auctioned off) also had a piece of wood going in-between the mobo and the frame.

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Now, I am not ruling out that this is proof that there is wood used instead of aluminum spacers, but I would like to open this up for discussion and debate.
By wardarkfox
#457679
it might be possible they used wood in areas for the parts of the movie where they used stunt packs, and aluminum spacers for the rest...From what I've seen when it comes to the alice frame and mobo area I think each actor had their own modifications for comfort
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By 910dohead
#457680
it might be possible they used wood in areas for the parts of the movie where they used stunt packs, and aluminum spacers for the rest...From what I've seen when it comes to the alice frame and mobo area I think each actor had their own modifications for comfort
Maybe, but the stunt packs didn't have the aluminum switchcraft bracket. Only the hero packs had them. That bracket appears in all of the screenshots. I'm thinking the GB1 hero packs might not have had the spacers but were an addition to the hero's when they were retrofit for GB2?
By wardarkfox
#457682
it might be possible they used wood in areas for the parts of the movie where they used stunt packs, and aluminum spacers for the rest...From what I've seen when it comes to the alice frame and mobo area I think each actor had their own modifications for comfort
Maybe, but the stunt packs didn't have the aluminum switchcraft bracket. Only the hero packs had them. That bracket appears in all of the screenshots. I'm thinking the GB1 hero packs might not have had the spacers but were an addition to the hero's when they were retrofit for GB2.
bah I forgot that most of the reference pictures are of GB2 packs and that's where i found the aluminum spacer pic
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By onlyalad19
#457693
This is some interesting stuff guys and good eye 910dohead. The 4k screen shots do show something... but what? Wood would be a safe assumption based on what is on the PIH Spengler Pack, but that is all we have to go on. Its the details like this that are going to be the toughest to figure out since they changed those details for GB2. However, from my understanding the PIH Spengler Hero Pack had very little changes made to it when compared to the Sony Lobby Hero Pack, as it still retained the GB1 Ion Arm End Cap and GB1 three part V-hook. On the bright side, the spacers can always be changed when and if we ever get our proof.
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By julz
#459796
Great thread!

I actually think looking at the pictures you might have something there, I did think it was funny that the spengler pack had the wood in place and I wondered what it was for. I think the Spengler pack is possibly the only pack we can see that retains the least amount of modifications to it, Ie the gb1 vhook. Having said that they did remove the halfmoon spacer but could easily have left the lower wood spacer.

I'm still fairly sure the halfmoon spacer could have been made out of wood. It's easy to cut and a strong piece of wood used as one long lower spacer would be a quick and solid way of attaching the pack to the frame.

Maybe they just brought in metal spacers for the second one as they look less "cheap" for a nuclear particle accelerator ;)

Nice research :cool:
By Master Taran
#459810
Maybe they just brought in metal spacers for the second one as they look less "cheap" for a nuclear particle accelerator ;)
You wouldn't have to use bare wood (how do we know the bare wood from the Spengler pack wasn't just a quick replacement for a broken part?). You could paint it black. Personally, I would sand it smooth, mask the grain, and paint it the same satin black as the rest of the pack (maybe even apply some silver weathering, so it looks metal). I don't think that would look cheap. In fact, IMO it would look less cheap that way than a couple of aluminum spacers, and probably sturdier.
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By Jeremy8564
#476606
After reviewing the evidence I definitely think the GB1 packs used the half moon and some form of a square block spacer at the base of the pack.

I will throw this into the mix - I think these spaces should be "rubber" as that would serve two purposes: 1.) insulation from electrical shock (theoretical idea - they are wearing particle accelerators which could throw electrical shock) and 2.) shock absorption from movement. I use "rubber" because in a practical sense it could be wood since that would be easy paint/put together.

As for the metal spacers used in GB2, my thoughts are they switched to the metal spacers as the parts were uniform and readily available when mass producing semi-hero and stunt packs. For the Heroes, these packs were updated as part of the retrofit/semi hero builds.

I don't know if it was a full block of wood like the Profiles in History pics show, but I'm leaning towards rubber/wood for my GB1 build. Will share what I do once I figure out exactly how I'm going to do it.
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By Demon Vice Commander
#476611
The Venkman Hero Pack currently in the Sony Archives has two rectangular unpainted sections on the motherboard at the bottom two mounting points. They appear to be identical to the upper attachment point where the half-moon spacer once was.

Essentially, I think that they might have had the half-moon spacers on all three mounting points in GB1.
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By Krenzy
#476612
If I had a guess I'd say the wood on the Spengler pack at the auction was a recent quick fix. Notice how the wood is in really good shape after an assumed minimum of 25 years...it may be in an obscure location but it'd still have nicks or dings or cracking.
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By Jeremy8564
#476616
Demon Vice Commander

Thanks for the info!

Do the spots for the blocks on the Venkman pack look to be the same size as the half moon spacer / empty spot on the Spengler Profiles in History pack? Just trying to figure out rough sizes.

Thanks!
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By Demon Vice Commander
#476653
Do the spots for the blocks on the Venkman pack look to be the same size as the half moon spacer / empty spot on the Spengler Profiles in History pack? Just trying to figure out rough sizes.
The sections of unpainted aluminum near the bottom two mounting points appear to be the same size as seen on the Spengler Hero Pack. Of course, this is just an eyeballed estimate.
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By Harry Bardwell
#476782
The Venkman Hero Pack currently in the Sony Archives has two rectangular unpainted sections on the motherboard at the bottom two mounting points. They appear to be identical to the upper attachment point where the half-moon spacer once was.

Essentially, I think that they might have had the half-moon spacers on all three mounting points in GB1.

I can't seem to find these Venkman Hero pics, can someone point me towards them?
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By Harry Bardwell
#476928
Ok, still unable to find the pics of of the venkman pack that shows the 2 spots, but taking it for the truth (for now :P). and staring at the pics in the thread and any others that I can find. Here's what I think I see, as supporting evidence that the GB1 packs used the half moon spacers all around.

First it looks like there are 2 spacers here, and if so then they are not the narrow metal ones on the gb2 packs.
the pic on the left is the original and the one on the right has a white outline on where I think the edges of the spacers are.
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The next pic is the Egon one from above looks like I see to flat spots of the spacers same as above left og pic, right the outline of the edges.
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And now what I think is the biggest piece of evidence that the were half moon spacers and not just blocks is this pic here. The space between them is obscured by the xlr bracket, but the edges of what we are seeing as the spacers are curved like the half moon spacer.
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Given this, I will be adding 3 half moon spacers to my next pack build, unless something else comes up. What do you guys think?
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By julz
#476947
I disagree that the bottom image of the pack in flames is the biggest piece of evidence... It's a really shoddy picture and I really can't see in it what you want me to see in it.

Defiantly a good find from Demon in regards to the missing square paint, totally missed that! but I still think it was square in nature, and most probably wood, I still think the halfmoon spacer was wood as well. ( the packs were painted with the spacers attached to the mobo and I don't think rubber would have liked that very much...)

After reading what Demon wrote I rechecked my old gif and you can see the 2 rectangle spacers fairly clearly in motion

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So rechecking back to the images it looks square to me

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I put the halfmoon spacer next to the blocks below and the rectangles look alot smaller in height.
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Also looking at the gif you can see where the bottom of the rectangle ends ... you can see the size fairly well in the pic below
Image
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By 910dohead
#476967
The Venkman Hero Pack currently in the Sony Archives has two rectangular unpainted sections on the motherboard at the bottom two mounting points. They appear to be identical to the upper attachment point where the half-moon spacer once was.
Where have you had a close look at that pack? Are there pictures floating around from private collections that you've seen? I've seen some of the "forbidden" photos of that pack but none where you could see what was going on with the mounts. Personally, I am pretty much in agreement with you DVC to an extent, but I think I side more with Julz. Since I posted my findings in this thread, i've gone and done my own research into this further. What I speculate is that there are either wooden or rubber blocks on the GB1 packs and not one solid piece (as you see on the PIH Hero). The Spengler gif and the other images that Julz posted perfectly highlights the details I found on the 4k blu-ray. However, I don't think they are a standard cut block shape. I believe one side of the blocks are cut at an angle which face outward of the mounts/cyclotron. It's a detail easily seen in the Stay Puft fire picture I posted previously. Harry Bardwell displayed this detail as well.

Now, I think its safe to assume that these blocks were either made from wood or another material like a rubber isolator. I am also going to say that I think that these spacers were all made from the same material as the half moon spacer. It just wouldn't make much sense not to. (The details of the half moon spacer have already been discussed before. For those of you that are unaware, Julz started a thread that covered the details of that spacer. That thread is located here: http://www.gbfans.com/community/viewtop ... =2&t=30726.)

Everyone in that thread had an opinion on what they thought the material was. Whether it be a hockey puck (decent guess but hockey pucks are way thicker than the size of the spacer) or something else. The two best guesses I would say was either wood or rubber. The rubber isolator theory is very plausible too since they are commonly used in aviation (which where a lot of the prop parts ended up coming from). However, I very much believe the parts to be wood and I will give you my reason why.

At some point between the first film and the second, we know that this detail was changed to the aluminum spacers when the retrofit took place. Why would they bother to change this detail? Probably the same reason why they changed some of the other details on the packs. It's safe to assume that these packs were improperly stored in a prop warehouse where parts either fell or broke off which needed replacing. Just look at the stuff that was changed in the retrofit: elbows, crank knob, ribbon cable, etc. All parts that could easily have broken due to age or been caught on something, pulled off and lost. Also, it's easy to tell that the hero packs became a lot more "worn" in the second film. Again, other signs of possible improper storage?

Another thing you might want to consider is natural weather conditions. These packs could have been sitting in a studio storage shed and had been exposed to bad conditions. May have caused the elbows to split and break apart? Possibly caused the original ribbon cables to wear down and fall apart? We all know that wood is a material that can easily get destroyed due to improper conditions. Now with rubber; not so much. Thick rubber can go bad but the conditions usually need to be extreme and exposed for long periods of time. Wood can get warped or expand much faster in harsh conditions. Bad conditions can ruin certain types of wood in a matter of weeks. Sitting in bad conditions for a period of four years? Totally possible. My guess is that these spacers were in fact wooden and ended up getting warped or cracked to the point of them being useless. We know that without some sort of spacer between the mobo and the frame that the bolt doesn't secure right and properly hold everything together. I'm thinking that's the exact reason why these were replaced with aluminum spacers.

The most logical reason for the retrofit being done on the hero packs was due to bad parts needing replacement. Why remake wooden spacers when aluminum ones require no tooling and will better stand up to time and the elements. Also, just to note that I have a rubber mallet that used to be my grandfathers. It's probably over fifty years old and its been exposed to harsh elements. I live in the desert where temperatures reach 130 degrees in the summer. On top of that, my garage is not air conditioned and gets even hotter than that in those months. That's where the mallet has been stored for at least the last 30+ years and it's only starting to show signs of hardening and cracking. Without actually providing concrete proof, I still remain skeptical on what the actual spacer material is. However, I think it's safe to say that the spacers were wooden.
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By Harry Bardwell
#476984
Julz- I totally respect your disagreements, and see that you have a valid point. I will therefore disagree with them :P. Because of the pic with flames I still think that the spacers are not square or rectangular blocks, and the reason it doesn't line up with the half moon manip you did is because the are turned sideways, so their profile would be square then, but when seen from the bottom it has the angle, or curve i"m seeing in the flame pic. But, I could be wrong.

910dohead- You have an interesting point, but I will offer a counter argument (not that I necessarily disagree) The first film may have used isolators because as you said lots of aircraft components were laying around for them to use apparently. It would make sense for them to use pre made items, rather than spending the time to make these wooden blocks.
When the second movie came around they would have to make the semi-hero packs, they didn't have access to the same components, so they made the new packs as close as they could to the old ones, then retrofitted the old ones with the new components to make them look like the new ones. It doesn't matter if things have or haven't degraded if you can't get any more for duplicates.
By abaka
#476988
Julz- I totally respect your disagreements, and see that you have a valid point. I will therefore disagree with them :P. Because of the pic with flames I still think that the spacers are not square or rectangular blocks, and the reason it doesn't line up with the half moon manip you did is because the are turned sideways, so their profile would be square then, but when seen from the bottom it has the angle, or curve i"m seeing in the flame pic. But, I could be wrong.

910dohead- You have an interesting point, but I will offer a counter argument (not that I necessarily disagree) The first film may have used isolators because as you said lots of aircraft components were laying around for them to use apparently. It would make sense for them to use pre made items, rather than spending the time to make these wooden blocks.
When the second movie came around they would have to make the semi-hero packs, they didn't have access to the same components, so they made the new packs as close as they could to the old ones, then retrofitted the old ones with the new components to make them look like the new ones. It doesn't matter if things have or haven't degraded if you can't get any more for duplicates.
That's always made me wonder what would happen if they made a 3rd film, would they try and recreate the packs (that have been sold) and refit the existing the packs using replicas that the community has offered to make them more uniform or completely design whole new equipment.

In terms of the GB1 spacer, I'm inclined to believe that they might actually have used half moon spacers sideways in the lower portion. It's always baffled me why would they use a completely different spacer in the top portion in the 1st film and then use all 3 spacers the same in the second.

I really don't believe they used a block of wood as a spacer (as seen in the Ramis pack auctioned in 2012). That to me always seemed like a rush job whilst in storage, but who really knows.
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By Demon Vice Commander
#477010
It definitely makes more sense for the bottom two spacers to be rectangular blocks rather than half-moons. I've always thought that the top spacer was a half-moon in order to provide a more snug gripping point when lifting the pack up (assuming the pack is lifted by grabbing the vertical cross-bar of the ALICE frame underneath the spacer - which is how I lift my packs).

I also believe that the spacers were wooden. Rubber would be messy to cut, and metal blocks would be overkill.
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By 35FT_TWINKIE
#477012
This is a really interesting topic. I'm inclined to believe that the spacers used at the bottom would match the half moon spacer used at the top. It only makes sense that they would use the same piece when mounting everything.

I think I may go ahead with 3 half moon spacers on my build...2 of them turned horizontal for the bottom cross bar.
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By Kingpin
Moderator
#477037
That's always made me wonder what would happen if they made a 3rd film, would they try and recreate the packs (that have been sold) and refit the existing the packs using replicas that the community has offered to make them more uniform or completely design whole new equipment.
If they went for classic Packs for some, if not all of a hypothetical third movie... I'd see them building up a new Buck and producing a mould from that because it'd still probably be quicker that stripping down one of the Packs still in their archive, I'd also bet they'd just make a bunch of resin casts of the greeblies.
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By PssdffJay
#477055
You're all wrong. The spacers were made from left over marshmallows.

This is a good thread. I thought everything to be learned has been. I don't know if they were square, half moon, or what but it is interesting. I agree they must have used something and not necessarily just aluminum spacers.

As for a third film, with HD you would hope they used real parts for a pack and not just copies.
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By onlyalad19
#477076
I just want to add a little food for thought. If you consider the idea of isolators being used, since most parts on the packs were real found parts, which are round and had to be cut to make the half moon shape... would it be possible that they found 6 round isolators and just cut them all in half to use on the four packs? If you also consider that these parts are all uniform in shape in size, then that also would support that theory. Now this is all still just theory, but if you do the math and think of what they had to work with it makes some amount of sense. I really don't want to think the prop guys slapped some painted wood on the packs after putting so many details into the packs in the first place... especially with Dan wanting everything in the movie to look real.
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By 35FT_TWINKIE
#477077
I just want to add a little food for thought. If you consider the idea of isolators being used, since most parts on the packs were real found parts, which are round and had to be cut to make the half moon shape... would it be possible that they found 6 round isolators and just cut them all in half to use on the four packs? If you also consider that these parts are all uniform in shape in size, then that also would support that theory. Now this is all still just theory, but if you do the math and think of what they had to work with it makes some amount of sense. I really don't want to think the prop guys slapped some painted wood on the packs after putting so many details into the packs in the first place... especially with Dan wanting everything in the movie to look real.

This.

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