Discuss the new Ghostbusters movie to be released in 2016, directed by Paul Feig.
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By SpaceBallz
#4888427
If they were to make a movie using Dan's artwork I'd be all over that like a heated blanket on an old man on a crisp winter morning.
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By Kingpin
Moderator
#4888434
Skyknight wrote:No offense, but if you think this:
Image
looks better than this:
Image
you clearly need new glasses! The artstyle of TOS looks good compared to RGB while the other does not!


No offense taken, but we're going to have to disagree here.
To me they look like the Ghostbusters in the uppermost image, be it in caricature. Nick Runge's covers for the series were far better than Tom Nguyen's interiors. I'm not sure what Tom was aiming for in his art, but Ray looks a bit more like a teenager, and Egon like he's losing his hair... and the art feels, I don't know... kinda flat.

Skyknight wrote:Image


In all honesty? I prefer the 1990s depictions. Sure, the newer show is more detailed, but the head and limbs of that character looks more realistically proportioned in the older cartoon (even her hair looks out of proportion with her head in the new show).

I love Dan's style and the RGB style because they achieved different things. I won't say which is inherently better because they are products from different times, media and approaches.
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By Peter33vr
#4888440
Seems to me that every artists who worked on Ghostbusters settled with generic white (and black) males to avoid likeness rights issues.

IDW artists and writers nailed the tone and phisical characteristics.
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By Skyknight
#4888444
If they make a new animated movie or tv show I'd like it to be one with actually good art and not one with caricatures of the characters. It's one of the reasons I didn't import the IDW comics, because I think Dan's artstyle for the characters is downright ugly. I would never watch a show based on this! I'm not a fan of the simplistic(you could almost say minimalistic) styles that are used in a lot of cartoons these days.

But I would watch a show based on the CG character models from the 2009 videogame. Or a RGB with updated visuals as long as it gets more detailed instead of less.
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By Alphagaia
#4888446
My only problem with the art style is they always look so angry.
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By Kingpin
Moderator
#4888468
Skyknight wrote:But I would watch a show based on the CG character models from the 2009 videogame./quote]

A nice idea, but it'd never happen due to likeness rights.

Skyknight wrote:Or a RGB with updated visuals as long as it gets more detailed instead of less.


There'd be a limit to how detailed you could get, as you'd reach a limit as to what would be practical to have people drawing hundreds of times.
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By Skyknight
#4888518
Kingpin wrote:There'd be a limit to how detailed you could get, as you'd reach a limit as to what would be practical to have people drawing hundreds of times.

I don't think that's a valid argument. If they could draw it more detailed in the 80's and 90's, then why can't they draw it at least as detailed now? Especially when they don't have to draw every single frame by hand anymore, because computers do most of the work these days?

Why did the new Scooby Doo have to look like this ?
Image

And why do the new Teen Titans look like that ?
Image

And the new Ninja Turtles like this ?
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I seriously think this trend needs to stop! NOW!
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By Kingpin
Moderator
#4888521
Skyknight wrote:I don't think that's a valid argument. If they could draw it more detailed in the 80's and 90's, then why can't they draw it at least as detailed now?


I wasn't referring to the 1986 style as being "too detailed", the new Sailor Moon is what I'd possibly consider "high detailed".

Skyknight wrote:Especially when they don't have to draw every single frame by hand anymore, because computers do most of the work these days?


That depends a lot on the style/method of the cartoon. Something like Ever After High or My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic look like they're animated in a method similar to flash animation, whereas Voltron: Legendary Defender and Gravity Falls are still predominantly traditional hand-drawn animation with computer enhancement.

Skyknight wrote:Why did the new Scooby Doo have to look like this ?


I've no idea, as that art style looks lousy on the Mystery Inc team. They should've stuck with the Zombie Island/Witches Ghost/Cyber Chase style.

Skyknight wrote:And the new Ninja Turtles like this ?
Image


That's not strictly the most accurate representative shot of those TMNT, as that's from a crossover special where they briefly visited the 1980s universe. Although that being said... I quite like their look there, and in the show in general.
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By Skyknight
#4888523
I still think the look of the 80's turtles was better, as their heads looked more turtle like back then.

I can't say anything about Voltron, because I never watched the old or the new one. I don't think I ever saw either one on air in Germany. Gravity Falls is an interesting show, but still the visuals could have been better. It's only the writing that saves it.

What I did like were the 2003 remake of Masters of the Universe and the 2011 remake of ThunderCats. Both had updated graphics and writing compared to the originals and I can't understand why they were canceled!
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By Kingpin
Moderator
#4888529
Skyknight wrote:What I did like were the 2003 remake of Masters of the Universe and the 2011 remake of ThunderCats. Both had updated graphics and writing compared to the originals and I can't understand why they were canceled!


That we're in agreement with, though the 80s Thundercats also has its charm.
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By JurorNo.2
#4888531
Skyknight wrote:What I did like were the 2003 remake of Masters of the Universe and the 2011 remake of ThunderCats. Both had updated graphics and writing compared to the originals and I can't understand why they were canceled!


I think there are moments when an idea catches the cultural zeitgeist. And once that moment passes, it's very difficult to find again.
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By SSJmole
#4888533
Thunder cats like young justice and others failed as cartoon network makes money off the toys which they wrote it for everyone adults watched based on brand kids didn't as much as lack of marketing thus no toy sales sadly.
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By zeta otaku
Supporting Member
#4888537
At least with Young Justice, Netflix is stepping in to make the third season happen. A similar push from fans to get Thundercats and MOTU the same treatment failed for some reason.
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By Skyknight
#4888557
Kingpin wrote:That we're in agreement with, though the 80s Thundercats also has its charm.

TBH, I don't remember much of the old Thundercats. At the time it aired here, we only had 3 programms on our tv and I could only watch cartoons when I spent the weekends with relatives who had cable. I mostly did that to watch RGB, the other shows that were on at saturdays were just a bonus. And with stuff like RGB, TMNT, He-Man The new Adventures, Saber Rider, Galaxy Rangers, Silver Hawks, Bionic Six, MASK and many more Thundercats always felt a bit underwhelming to me. But I really liked what they did with the story in the new one. Too bad it got only one season and never officially got released in Germany.
But today with the internet I can watch so many great things that don't get an official release in my country. Being able to understand basic English also helps a lot and in the case of Japanese releases there are even people who make fansubs for entire shows.

Too bad the toysales bombed and sabotaged the production of those remakes. They were good. I bet they would have done better if they made more adult collectors stuff instead of childs toys.
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By SSJmole
#4888559
zeta otaku wrote:At least with Young Justice, Netflix is stepping in to make the third season happen. A similar push from fans to get Thundercats and MOTU the same treatment failed for some reason.


Probably because thundercats and MOTU are only to sell toys. Young justice however dc can use to sell comics either of the series or people who watch may check out regular comic universe too.
By pferreira1983
#4888628
Skyknight wrote:Image
Bingo! The Other Side's art is the one I miss. That fits better than what they got now. It just doesn't look right, overly cartoony and lacking detail. The Other Side was absolutely fine and better.

Skyknight wrote:I seriously think this trend needs to stop! NOW!
This is why I complain about the state of animation in cartoons today. This is the quality they're putting out. :roll:
By zeta otaku
Supporting Member
#4888635
It's a style preference. While I can understand the dislike in the face details on certain characters in the current run, the detail on everything else is spot on. The minute detail on the packs, ghosts, backgrounds, side characters, scaling and other bits are impeccable. On the flip side, I hated everything in The Other Side from the art to the story. Case in point, the image above. The scale is all out of whack even with the angle of the shot in consideration. It's irksome. Also, Venkman NEVER tucked his jumpsuit into his boots.

As for the argument about modern animation and the decline of detailed characters in western animation, part of it is again a style aesthetic choice, something to make the art memorable. It also again falls to cost to produce. If you have a simple, easy to mimick style, you can hire cheaper, less experienced artists to make your show.
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By Alphagaia
#4888636
Believe it or not, but the current western animation style is also born in part from a desire to set it apart from the older styles. It's the designers wanting to do something new as well as the kids desire to like something unique as they grow out of the phase to adore what their parents adore. Add to this your childhood imprinting and impacting your preferences as your fond memories can cloud your judgement of the new stuff and here we are, realizing we just got old and seen it all before.
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By Kingpin
Moderator
#4888717
pferreira1983 wrote:Bingo! The Other Side's art is the one I miss. That fits better than what they got now. It just doesn't look right, overly cartoony and lacking detail. The Other Side was absolutely fine and better.


I respect your opinion, but will forever disagree about Nguyen's artwork being superior (it definitely fails your preference for detail, Dan easily puts in far more work in the detail of the equipment, caricatures, buildings and even general room furnishings than Tom ever did). Further examples:

Underwhelming, rather generic "energy beam" proton streams:
Image

Unexciting and unremarkable character designs:
Image
(Side note, I wonder if they threw in that "cuffs" joke to acknowledge they'd screwed up that element of Venkman in the earlier issues of the story).

And I'll just let this shot of Ecto-1 and the Firehouse speak for themselves:
Image

While the colouring is again alright enough, it's still rather flat/drab compared to most modern comics (and the IDW Ghostbusters issues that'd been published after TOS, the ghosts in the current series "pop" off of the pages). On the whole, I guess the reason why I dislike the artwork in The Other Side is because it lacks personality.

It's not as bad as the atrocious job by Salvador Navarro on the Ghostbusters/Lone Gunmen crossover, but Dan's art is easily better, if not for anything else than the sheer effort he pours into it.
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By Skyknight
#4888754
I can understand that you don't like artwork that lacks personality, but I dislike the lack of detail in a too cartoony style more.
They should just get likeness rights and make a cartoon with this look:
Image
Image
This Post Contains Spoilers
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By Kingpin
Moderator
#4888804
Skyknight wrote:but I dislike the lack of detail in a too cartoony style more.


Are you sure you want to stand by that statement? I only ask because there's a few observations that would actually prove the style of the artwork in The Other SIde is significantly less detailed than Dapper Dan's:

Just from the pages posted here:

*No handle attached to the PKE Meter.
*No leather fobs hanging from the webbing belts.
*No A.L.I.C.E. waist strap.
*No leg hoses on the uniforms.
*Frequently no labels on the Proton Packs or Proton Guns.
*Several instances of the Packs missing their resistors, cables and other greeblies.
*Nametags and no-ghost logos illegible in some shots.

And observations from pages I pulled up from Google:

*Frequently no V-hook mount for the Proton Gun.
*Characters looking off-model from some panels to another.
*PKE Meter faceplate differing from panel to panel.
*No visible lighting on Packs (apart from barrel flare).

Fair enough if you like the style more than Dan's, but you'll never convince me Nguyen's work is more detailed.
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By Peter33vr
#4888806
Also, the busters likenesses are....bland. too generic.
I see more of Aykroyd in Dapper`s Ray than the one in TOS....same can be said for the other guys.
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By Skyknight
#4888807
But even with all those things you mentioned it manages to look more detailed overall.
And now imagine what it would look like if he didn't make those mistakes and had all the things in it that you miss.
I want them to make a cartoon with human looking Busters not caricatures. If they make one with Dan's style now, I wouldn't watch it even if it was good, because if it's successful the art of cartoons would degrade even more and the next cartoon they make after that could have them end up looking like Phineas and Ferb or even worse. I don't want that!

If they can't produce the same or better quality animations as they did in the 80s, they shouldn't make a new show at all.
I stand by the examples of shows I gave that look worse than their predecessors!
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By Kingpin
Moderator
#4888810
Skyknight wrote:But even with all those things you mentioned it manages to look more detailed overall.


At this point in time I'm actually convinced you're using "detailed" when I think you actually mean "realistic".

Nguyen's art is definitely more realistically proportioned and less caricatured, I'll concede to that.

However, in the scheme of things, there's a Ghostbusters comic style I'm not seeing mentioned that I think would tick both boxes for you in regard to realism and detail, Steve Kurth's work on the 88MPH run.


Skyknight wrote:And now imagine what it would look like if he didn't make those mistakes and had all the things in it that you miss.


It'd look better but it still wouldn't look the best, Nguyen's art would still lack a certain dynamism to it, and then there's my feeling that there's nothing to write home about his background work... generic hotel, generic cityscape that might as well be anywhere rather than New York... generic underworld setting and
generic Angelic heaven
This Post Contains Spoilers
. You look at any panel from Dan's run on the comic and if it's not an out-and-out real-world location, it's at least based heavily on one.
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By Skyknight
#4888859
I see that we won't agree on this, but I would rather watch a cartoon series in this style than Dan's.
Even if Ray looks like he fell into a youth fontain and Egon like he was dipped into a barrel of hair gel, they still look more like the Ghostbusters to me than anything Dan has ever drawn!
By pferreira1983
#4888950
Alphagaia wrote:Add to this your childhood imprinting and impacting your preferences as your fond memories can cloud your judgement of the new stuff and here we are, realizing we just got old and seen it all before.
You speak for yourself. Animation that has clarity is a no brainer for me. Today's animation is incredibly lazy and cost cutting.

Kingpin wrote:I respect your opinion, but will forever disagree about Nguyen's artwork being superior (it definitely fails your preference for detail, Dan easily puts in far more work in the detail of the equipment, caricatures, buildings and even general room furnishings than Tom ever did). Further examples:
It's not terrible, it's their style but to me it just doesn't look solid and faces aren't in any proportion. I mean I'd take the Now Comics art over this any day as that was more faithful as well. Having it too cartoony is a big no no to me, then it takes the characters out of a realism.

Skyknight wrote:They should just get likeness rights and make a cartoon with this look:
Yes! Now that's good! Unfortunately would cost too many pennies to replicate in comic form on a monthly basis. :-|

Skyknight wrote:I see that we won't agree on this, but I would rather watch a cartoon series in this style than Dan's.
Even if Ray looks like he fell into a youth fontain and Egon like he was dipped into a barrel of hair gel, they still look more like the Ghostbusters to me than anything Dan has ever drawn!
You won't get Kingpin to agree with you. I tried to convince him that Marvel's Real Ghostbusters comic wasn't inferior to the Now Comics one and was in some ways better but he thinks the US comic is the best for some odd reasoning. :roll:
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By Skyknight
#4889003
We can't tell Kingpin or anyone else what to like! But I find it sad that so many people prefer the cartoony look over a more realistic look.
Yes, I like shows like "Gravity Falls" as well, but despite the art style, not because of it! Good writing can cover for a lack of realism in the style in ways great visuals can't cover for bad writing, but that doesn't mean that artists should become lazy. A good show can get away with it, but a great show understands that it has to have both to be really good.

The counterexample would be the Japanese show "Sword Art Online" which looks all shiny and well polished, but suffers from lazy writing. You can tell on first look that the writer didn't even take the time to investigate what it is like to play an MMO, much less trying to show believable game mechanics. He doesn't even stay with the rules he first established for his world and changes them whenever they don't fit his plot. While it's still enjoyable mindless fun, I can't deny that it has really bad writing!

For a new Ghostbusters tv show or animated movie, I think it would have to get both things right to succed. And if they can't do that, it shouldn't be made at all and better to just bring re-runs of RGB back to tv!
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