SpaceBallz wrote:wishtheend wrote:I just feel the need to address the "perceived" anti male gripe.
The girl Venkman is testing ESP on: dumb blonde
Dana is the helpless client turned overtly sexualized hell hound (groped by demons on the way there)
The girl at Louis' party: dumb blonde
Janine goes from almost asexual bookworm in GB1 to horn ball in GB2 for Louis?
The whole bathroom scene in GB2 was to get a somewhat undressed Dana shot (absolutely not needed for the scene)
Even Gozer, is referred to as a nimble minx
Regardless of how you feel men are portrayed in GB16, there is no embracing of women in the original films to be anything more the pretty eye candy, the object of sexual desire or to be the assistant to the boys. Some will try to blame it on "the 80s were a different time mannn" but that's not the case. I'm not implying the people making the film did these things intentionally but it's a reflection of culture and how women are seen and treated.
Fast forward to the new movie, the only character who I felt was purposefully a joke was Kevin but it was done with the right kind of humor and didn't bother me at all. None of the other male characters I felt were undermined as men, nor played any different than those actors in other films (Michael McDonald, the delivery guy, the mayor, Rowan etc).
So it seems blow jobs by ghosts, demons groping a woman, Peter being borderline pervy with Dana (drugging her), Gyno jokes in GB2 - all of this is totally okay. But there's a shot to the crotch gag and people suddenly are attacked? I ended up at a bar after the movie last night with my wife and ran into a few other couples there. The main response I got is that the lady viewers were happy to see that GB16 does make a point to address the typical tropes and standard women have been held to and basically gives them the middle finger. Yes, there is that element of girl power - but it doesn't offend me as a man to see a film with that dynamic. There is a double standard between what was OK in the OG films and how now it suddenly crosses a line because it's equal on the other side. You can dish it, but you can't take it.
I think your missing the point. Feig's angle is that he's trying to create equality in Hollywood for women and give them stronger roles, demeaning the opposite sex doesn't help the cause. Dana is a strong character until she gets possessed, then acts out of her persona. The ghost BJ scene (that everybody runs to when it comes to these discussions) was a dream sequence. A majority of what you pointed out came from Peter, who is a woman-crazy flirtatious male (to be fair, he did swoon over Dana and fall in love). It was his character, this film does it just to do it. I don't see the "right kind of humor" displaying a male sex object that only gets hired because he looks good. ANYBODY that agrees with the reversing-roles ideal is a misogynist themselves.
Janine was a professionally dressed secretary with an attitude (and yes they gave her some sex appeal in the sequel but I'm sure the actress didn't mind), Dana was a musician that shot Peter's advances down every time he tried and even in GB2 she tries to save her baby on her own without the GBs when the time came. Those are strong female roles. People on these forums blaming the original GB films as being sexist against women to justify the message in the reboot baffles me.
Exactly. I made it a point to say the only sexist trope in the original (I never mentioned GBII) is Venkman, as a character. Dana is a strong female throughout. And, you failed to address that the only "helpless" character in the original is Luis, who is by all accounts a man.
Janine was absolutely NOT "almost asexual" in the original. Her scene with Egon in the beginning, she's obviously hitting on him. Then, towards the end when she tells Egon "I'm afraid your gonna die" is more proof she has the hots for Egon. Perhaps it was so subtle, you missed it? If anything, Egon is the one who's the asexual bookworm in GB1.
Gozer is called a "nimble little minx" by Venkman. As I've said multiple times now, he is the only polarizing aspect in terms of misogyny in the original.
Again, I'm not talking about GBII. The sequel is a completely different monster.
And regardless of how you feel about women in GB1, in the 2016 version, there is no embracing of men to be anything more the pretty eye candy, the object of sexual desire or to be the assistant to the boys, or anything beyond being a pain in the ass. See how that works? Those are basically your words with the sexes reversed.
The ghost blowjob scene is well done and not a major plot point. And, as Spaceballz pointed out - a dream sequence. Perhaps that went over your head too? What with Ray wearing a Napolean esque outfit.
I cannot stress this enough, I'm not even close to offended. I'm looking at it from a strictly objective perception. I fight cognitive dissonance tooth and nail, to look at things with as little agenda as I possibly can.
Spaceballz and I's point still stands. The definition of equality is - "the state of being equal, especially in status, rights, and opportunities."
Perhaps the best way to debate this subject is to take everyone out of the picture and compare JUST the receptionists from GB1 to GB16. Janine knows how the phones work, threatens to quit, shows true excitement about the first call, seems to have a pretty good idea of what the business is all about, even goes as far as to say "you promised you'd hire more help", implying her intelligence. Also, she goes to bat for the GB's when Peck shows up with the police. Kevin on the other hand doesn't know how phones work, moves into the HQ, ignores the phones (doesn't even know how the phones work), has absolutely no clue about what GBs actually do, hell, he doesn't even know the difference between the basic senses (covers his eyes instead of his ears in response to loud noises). I could go on, but I think you get the point.
"Doctor... Venkman. The purpose of science is to serve mankind. You seem to regard science as some kind of dodge... or hustle. Your theories are the worst kind of popular tripe, your methods are sloppy, and your conclusions are highly questionable! You are a poor scientist, Dr. Venkman!" - Dean Yeager
"No, no, no. You are a talking monkey on a spinning ball, floating through infinity. You f*ckhead" - Joe Rogan