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#4869035
I was just issued a warning for posting a clip from the daytime women's talk show, The Talk, on the grounds that it was offensive and inappropriate and "one of the most outlandish things Kingpin has come across"... Though I agree that what the women were laughing about was utterly appalling, it was relevant to the issue of "Rowan" the logo ghost being shot in the groin, and the double-standard at play. The clip in question showed the hosts of The Talk and their female audience laughing about a story in the news involving a wife who mutilated her husband's genitals. At the end of the clip, a lone host argued that if the situation was reversed and a man mutilated his wife's genitalia because she divorced him, none of the women would find that amusing. The audience went silent for a moment. Then the other hosts argued, "Yeah, but that's different."

Not surprisingly, Kingpin deleted this clip instantly. My comment was, "...coming from Paul Feig, it seems like another cheap shot at both masculinity and the fanbase. The logo being the iconic symbol of Ghostbusters taking a proton stream to the groin. I could only imagine the reaction from feminist groups if Zuul was shot in the same spot or her breasts, and they clearly made that into a joke."

Apparently, using a real-world example of this double-standard and showing how such attitudes are pervasive in pop-culture constitutes being "inappropriate." It's no secret that Kingpin has feminist leanings and he's extremely supportive of this reboot. There have been other instances where it appears that he's letting his personal views overshadow his role as an objective moderator on these boards to the detriment of healthy dialogue.
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By Kingpin
#4869042
Your post in the reboot forum was partially-removed because of the following reasons:

*The graphic nature of the description you'd posted, which a Ghostbusters fan forum was not the appropriate place to discuss.
*And the "feminazi" remark.

While I agree that any laughter at what happened to the man referenced in the video from The Talk was reprehensible, but it is not completely comparable to what happened to Rowan because the case mentioned on The Talk was far more extreme and physically damaging.

And I'll agree, that some self-identified feminists have said some abhorrent things, but when you start calling people "Nazis", not only does that trivialise what the actual Nazis did - and disagree as you will with the very vocal feminists, they haven't done anything to you that's even remotely comparable to Hitler and the Third Reich. When someone starts to call someone else a Nazi just because of a difference in a very strong opinion, you have to take a step back and consider if you're now getting too personally involved in an argument, and becoming too over the top.
Egon's Pompadour wrote:Apparently, using a real-world example of this double-standard and showing how such attitudes are pervasive in pop-culture constitutes being "inappropriate."
The bit I considered inappropriate for the forum were the descriptions of the mutilation.
Egon's Pompadour wrote:extremely supportive of this reboot.
Cautiously-optimistic of the reboot, and I wasn't aware that was a crime.
Egon's Pompadour wrote:to the detriment of healthy dialogue.
It will remain up for debate as to what constitutes "healthy discussion", I would submit the examples cited in this thread are not healthy discussion. I'm still in two minds about whether I should leave the similar comments on the mutilation issue here, but they stand as an example of why I don't feel they should've been posted on this forum.
#4869057
Kingpin wrote:Your post in the reboot forum was partially-removed because of the following reasons:

*The graphic nature of the description you'd posted, which a Ghostbusters fan forum was not the appropriate place to discuss.
*And the "feminazi" remark.

While I agree that any laughter at what happened to the man referenced in the video from The Talk was reprehensible, but it is not completely comparable to what happened to Rowan because the case mentioned on The Talk was far more extreme and physically damaging.

And I'll agree, that some self-identified feminists have said some abhorrent things, but when you start calling people "Nazis", not only does that trivialise what the actual Nazis did - and disagree as you will with the very vocal feminists, they haven't done anything to you that's even remotely comparable to Hitler and the Third Reich. When someone starts to call someone else a Nazi just because of a difference in a very strong opinion, you have to take a step back and consider if you're now getting too personally involved in an argument, and becoming too over the top.
From Wikipedia: Feminazi is a term used pejoratively to describe either feminists who are perceived as extreme or radical, women who are perceived as seeking superiority over men, rather than equality, or in some cases, to describe all feminists.

If you took that much issue with the word then you could've just edited that out, but I think you really just didn't want the video showing the forum how disgusting and hypocritical some feminists are.
Kingpin wrote:The bit I considered inappropriate for the forum were the descriptions of the mutilation.
I assure you, the descriptions weren't any more graphic than what was described of Vigo the Carpathian's death. We're all adults here. You don't have to cover our eyes and ears during the "bad parts."
Kingpin wrote:It will remain up for debate as to what constitutes "healthy discussion", I would submit the examples cited in this thread are not healthy discussion. I'm still in two minds about whether I should leave the similar comments on the mutilation issue here, but they stand as an example of why I don't feel they should've been posted on this forum.
I posted the video to make a point, a point which still stands by the way. If the Ghostbusters ever shot a female ghost in a sensitive area alluding to her sexual anatomy, there would be an uproar among feminists. The video illustrated that an entire group of women laughing about a male's genitals being mutilated couldn't even comprehend the double-standard of them not finding the reverse quite so amusing. They outright said, "Yeah, but that's different." It doesn't get any more blatantly obvious than that. And it was a popular, nationally televised talk show, not some fringe lunatics who are outcasts in society.
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By Kingpin
#4869061
Egon's Pompadour wrote:From Wikipedia: Feminazi is a term used pejoratively to describe either feminists who are perceived as extreme or radical, women who are perceived as seeking superiority over men, rather than equality, or in some cases, to describe all feminists.

If you took that much issue with the word then you could've just edited that out, but I think you really just didn't want the video showing the forum how disgusting and hypocritical some feminists are.
I wasn't under the belief anyone misunderstood what the word meant. I maintain however that throwing around a portmanteau of "feminist" and "Nazi" is not what most would describe as "healthy discussion".

And as memory serves, I did edit that word out, along with the whole part about dismemberment.
Egon's Pompadour wrote:I assure you, the descriptions weren't any more graphic than what was described of Vigo the Carpathian's death.
One's fiction, the other wasn't. One is a vaguely detailed, which often would go over the younger audience's head, the other wasn't really - and again, was not an appropriate topic for conversation on Ghostbusters Fans.
Egon's Pompadour wrote:I posted the video to make a point, a point which still stands by the way.

And I believe I agreed with you that their using it as a source of amusement was obviously wrong. Though I have to ask, if we were talking in a public bar full of people, or a shopping mall, would you be constantly bringing this example up?

A final thought: the guests/hosts of The Talk don't represent all feminists, just like the misogynistic Ghostbusters fans don't represent all Ghostbusters fans; just like Al Quaeda doesn't represent all people of the Muslim faith, or the Westboro Baptist Church doesn't represent all people of the Christian faith.
By kevinj319
#4869084
Egon's Pompadour, I agree with your points 100% and I appreciate your efforts to expose the truth about modern feminism, but in all reality a Ghostbusters forum isn't going to be an ideal place to discuss such things. Considering the subject matter, that is. I know they try to keep things PG-13 around here. And yes, you can get away with a lot more vulgarity and name-calling on the forums if you are pro-reboot; I am pretty sure you and I aren't the only ones who notice that. However, they can run the site as they choose, and I have been on other fan forums where any dissent whatsoever about a new product led to an instant permanent ban. They do allow at least a discussion here. Personally, I hate that Ghostbusters is being used as a political tool, but I try to save those discussions for more political sites.
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#4869100
kevinj319 wrote:Egon's Pompadour, I agree with your points 100% and I appreciate your efforts to expose the truth about modern feminism, but in all reality a Ghostbusters forum isn't going to be an ideal place to discuss such things. Considering the subject matter, that is. I know they try to keep things PG-13 around here. And yes, you can get away with a lot more vulgarity and name-calling on the forums if you are pro-reboot; I am pretty sure you and I aren't the only ones who notice that. However, they can run the site as they choose, and I have been on other fan forums where any dissent whatsoever about a new product led to an instant permanent ban. They do allow at least a discussion here. Personally, I hate that Ghostbusters is being used as a political tool, but I try to save those discussions for more political sites.
I understand what you're saying. I never wanted Ghostbusters to be turned into a political battlefield, but Sony made that decision. Unfortunately, it seems you can only address feminism and its impact on this movie if you're in favor of it.

Since posting this thread, Kingpin has edited yet another post of mine in response to an analogy which a member made about anti-reboot fans being rude customers demanding better service in a restaurant. In response, I posted a clip from the movie Anchorman that played upon that same analogy and illustrates how desperate some fans are for anything with the GB name and logon on it. A server brings Ron Bergundy a cat shit sandwich and demands that he eat it. Although initially reluctant, his hunger gets the best of him and he tearfully devours the whole thing. That movie is PG-13 so Kingpin isn't trying to keep the forum at that level by selectively censoring posts of fans who oppose the reboot. Needless to say, I'm not interested in posting in a forum that has kindergarten moderation and appears to be biased in one direction.

Farewell and adieu, Ghostheads :sigh:
By kevinj319
#4869111
Egon's Pompadour wrote: Farewell and adieu, Ghostheads :sigh:
Really that's the reason I don't come here as often now. But there is a ton of focus on the new movie right now. There are so many other facets to this forum that are being overshadowed. Hopefully, you will return once this GB16 hype calms down and see that this place has a lot of other things to offer.
User avatar
By Kingpin
#4869116
Egon's Pompadour wrote:Unfortunately, it seems you can only address feminism and its impact on this movie if you're in favor of it.
It's tricky to discuss the pros and cons of feminism when there are arguments being made that the gaps in pay based on gender, the availability of jobs to both genders, and the glass ceiling are branded as myths, rather than things that could actually be present in our modern world.

I'll be honest in saying I'm more willing to discuss stuff like that with someone who's willing to consider that those things could be real, than someone who's already made up their mind that they aren't - if they've already made up their mind, there's less chance I'll be successful at being able to reach a compromise, or even change their opinion on the subject. Maybe I've been less flexible in my stance than I should've been, unfortunately the assertion it was all "made up" got my back up a little because it felt so dismissive.

The current situation with discussion feminism is a two-way street however, both sides have a hand in it having become as toxic a subject as it has become, maybe a change in tact, a softening in language, and a dialled back approach might
Egon's Pompadour wrote:Since posting this thread, Kingpin has edited yet another post of mine in response to an analogy which a member made about anti-reboot fans being rude customers demanding better service in a restaurant.
It's a gross clip, Pompadour, I don't see why you're defending it (I imagine you'd be criticising it heavily were it a scene featured in the reboot). To paraphrase Ian Malcolm's line from Jurassic Park: just because you can post it, doesn't mean you should.

And as an observation, "shit" isn't the only insult out there. Use the same word too much and you lose the impact it has.
Egon's Pompadour wrote:selectively censoring posts of fans who oppose the reboot.
If I'd wanted to censor you, I would've just deleted the whole post. Heck, if I were going out of my way to bring in a George Orwell-level of censorship, I could've just banned you days ago. :P
kevinj319 wrote:But there is a ton of focus on the new movie right now.
This is something I'm struggling to understand the reasoning behind. It's a new film, the first to bear the Ghostbusters name in 27 years, I don't believe it's all that surprising it's going to be getting a lot of the limelight of late, especially when a lot of topics regarding the classic films have been pretty thoroughly discussed (although we still see the faint glimmer of something new)*

There are new topics popping up dedicated to the new merchandise inspired by the classic films, and hopefully with some new information coming my way, I'm hoping to post a few more news articles about 84/89 Ghostbusters-inspired merchandise.

*And on that note, a topic went up recently about props from Ghostbusters and Ghostbusters II going to auction, with a new photo of the Tripod Traps... yet there was barely a shred of interest posted in response to that news story.
#4869133
kevinj319 wrote:Really that's the reason I don't come here as often now. But there is a ton of focus on the new movie right now. There are so many other facets to this forum that are being overshadowed. Hopefully, you will return once this GB16 hype calms down and see that this place has a lot of other things to offer.
I may eventually, but as it stands, I've lost considerable interest in participating in this forum.
CPU64 wrote:Wait, I had no idea the word feminazi was a no-no here... interesting.
I've been a member of extremely liberal forums that didn't censor feminazi, but there was a concerted effort to make sure those moderators didn't let their own personal views influence their decisions.
Kingpin wrote:It's tricky to discuss the pros and cons of feminism when there are arguments being made that the gaps in pay based on gender, the availability of jobs to both genders, and the glass ceiling are branded as myths, rather than things that could actually be present in our modern world.

I'll be honest in saying I'm more willing to discuss stuff like that with someone who's willing to consider that those things could be real, than someone who's already made up their mind that they aren't - if they've already made up their mind, there's less chance I'll be successful at being able to reach a compromise, or even change their opinion on the subject. Maybe I've been less flexible in my stance than I should've been, unfortunately the assertion it was all "made up" got my back up a little because it felt so dismissive.
I never would've mentioned feminism on this board if Ghostbusters hadn't been hijacked by feminists and used as a vehicle to further their agenda. Several members in this forum asserted there was a gender wage gap. You had no problem with that assertion and didn't delete their comments for being too political or irrelevant to Ghostbusters because those beliefs resonate with your own. The video I posted, which you quickly removed, was a scholar discussing why the arguments claiming there is a gender wage gap are inaccurate and deliberately misleading. You could have contested those points if you wanted to, but instead chose to delete the video because the title read "Feminism vs Truth". She's offering an academic explanation for why the statistics often cited by feminists are intentionally misinterpreted to further perpetuate a victim mentality. It would be one thing if she were simply denying such a pay gap exists, but she's providing a detailed analysis of how the data is purposefully misconstrued.

<<Link to Video That's Been Removed Before Removed Once Again>>
Kingpin wrote:It's a gross clip, Pompadour, I don't see why you're defending it (I imagine you'd be criticising it heavily were it a scene featured in the reboot). To paraphrase Ian Malcolm's line from Jurassic Park: just because you can post it, doesn't mean you should.

And as an observation, "shit" isn't the only insult out there. Use the same word too much and you lose the impact it has.
You're right. I would absolutely criticize that scene if it was featured in a Ghostbusters movie. It's funny in Anchorman, which is a totally different kind of humor. Adam McKay wasn't hired to direct Ghostbusters and neither should Paul Feig have been.

Trust me, there are plenty of other insults I would rather use, but what's the point? You're just going to censor those like everything else.
Last edited by Fritz on June 28th, 2016, 8:00 am, edited 1 time in total.Reason: Link to Video That's Been Removed Before Removed Once Again
User avatar
By Fritz
#4869171
I could swear I've explained this once before...Oh wait, I have
Fritz wrote:This is Ghostbusters Fans. This is a board to talk about Ghostbusters. This is not a political board. There are places on the internet to talk about politics: Fox Nation, Democratic Underground, Breitbart, Daily Kos--whatever floats your boat.

The Ghostbusters reboot is controversial enough without bringing that kind of purely political discussion into it; there were political discussions on this board in years past, and they spiraled out of control and resulted in a lot of bad feelings all around. We've avoided them since then for a reason.

It's not "favoring" one political philosophy over another--it's simply that this isn't the place for political discussions.
Several members in this forum asserted there was a gender wage gap. You had no problem with that assertion and didn't delete their comments for being too political or irrelevant to Ghostbusters because those beliefs resonate with your own. The video I posted, which you quickly removed, was a scholar discussing why the arguments claiming there is a gender wage gap are inaccurate and deliberately misleading. You could have contested those points if you wanted to, but instead chose to delete the video because the title read "Feminism vs Truth". She's offering an academic explanation for why the statistics often cited by feminists are intentionally misinterpreted to further perpetuate a victim mentality. It would be one thing if she were simply denying such a pay gap exists, but she's providing a detailed analysis of how the data is purposefully misconstrued.
And if this was a political debate site, that video would have been perfectly fine. I'd be just as quick to delete some video ranting about the patriarchy or any other "SJW" cause--because this isn't the place for it.
Trust me, there are plenty of other insults I would rather use, but what's the point? You're just going to censor those like everything else.
You may notice that all I deleted was the video link.

I'm not giving you another warning, I'm certainly not banning you. But your suggestion to voluntarily take some time off from this board may have some merit--I've always thought that if something on a web site is getting you so worked up, maybe stepping away from the web site for a while is a good idea.
User avatar
By Kingpin
#4869228
Egon's Pompadour wrote:I've been a member of extremely liberal forums that didn't censor feminazi, but there was a concerted effort to make sure those moderators didn't let their own personal views influence their decisions.
Let me ask you a hypothetical question then: you're a member of a forum and somebody accuses you, or a friend of yours of being a "masculanazi", with the shoe being on the other foot, would you be okay with that?

I know we come from different backgrounds, and forums have different approaches from one message board to the next, but suggesting someone is a "BLANKnazi" is not a reasoned response to anything. As I've said it before it trivialises the evil committed by the actual Nazis and neo-fascists, likely start a flame war, and makes you look like a radical, hostile opponent.

The thing is, if you've regarded the feminists that you disagree with as "radical feminists", I don't think we would've had a problem, as folks on both sides can get radicalised, but equating someone with the Nazis when they aren't even close is crossing a line.
Egon's Pompadour wrote:[I never would've mentioned feminism on this board if Ghostbusters hadn't been hijacked by feminists and used as a vehicle to further their agenda. Several members in this forum asserted there was a gender wage gap. You had no problem with that assertion and didn't delete their comments for being too political or irrelevant to Ghostbusters because those beliefs resonate with your own.
However given the strength of your own feelings on the subject of feminism, and it's involvement in Ghostbusters, would it have not made some sense to have employed some restraint in what you were posting? It's one thing to post an essay, even link to a video discussing what you view to be a myth (even though I still feel the video wasn't impartial, which was one of the reasons I removed it in the first place), it's another to post a video about someone eating cat shit, even if it was fake cat shit, and then write a whole paragraph about that. Again, if we were talking person to person in a bar, and not anonymously on a web forum, would you have mentioned it in that instance? The same question and scenario goes for the genital mutilation posts.

People come here to discuss Ghostbusters, not to see posts talking about cat excrement and guys getting their nethers chopped off.

As a note on your remark about the "victim mentality", the statistics detailing physical abuse in relationships (The United States Supreme Court actually just closed a loophole that allowed abusive spouses from being able to purchase a gun after being reported for abuse, I believe there were some statistics detailing the high number of female victims who'd been shot by their former spouses), the cases of honour killings, the genuine cases of rape (such as the recent documented cast at Stanford, and multiple incidents in countries like India) would suggest that there is rife victimisation of women not just in the United States, or the United Kingdom, but across the wider world.
Egon's Pompadour wrote:You're just going to censor those like everything else.
That would very much depend on the insult. I can't however speak for how my colleagues would respond to whatever you wrote.

I think a sabbatical from the forum might help with things, just my two cents.
User avatar
By AJ Quick
#4869248
I've been brought up to speed about this and I fully support the actions that Kingpin and Fritz are taking.

This is Ghostbusters Fans, a site about Ghostbusters. Topics such as politics, religion and the like are very powerful and very polarizing. There is no point in discussing them here as it really puts a sharp divide on the community. Long standing friendships ruined due to otherwise minute disagreements. There are ample places where these things can be discussed elsewhere.

Its all really just off topic and should have no place on this site.
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