[ccv66]

Ghostbusters is is more a sciFi fantasy

[JurorNo.2]

You don't see it, because you say things like "it wasn't just a comedy."

[ccv66]

Im not sure what i dont see. To start all the negative comments were uncalled for and unfair, but came from a really small portion of fans. Unfortunately out of all the people on the planet some are terrible human beings. However fans shouldn't feel bad for being upset. My niece loves my little pony, if michael bay remade it as a bunch of ninja dude ponies that kick butt and blow crap up, she'd be upset.( I prefered the origianl TMNT to his) It was a fan base that was majority men and a movie that catered to women. Being upset/disappointed is ok, spouting hate is not. ATC got an unfair break, it wasnt given a chance to be its own movie. To alot of people Ghostbusters is more than a movie. Feels like its a part of me, a hobby. If i died today Id want my family to keep my proton pack in the living room to remind them of me. I understand that it's probably frustrating that actors seemed to be judged on being attractive rather than their ability. It is admittedly hard to find female comedians based solely on their performance but Rosesann and " mike & Molly" are enjoyable comedies that fit that role. To say nerd culture sexualizes women seems offensive to men and wrong. Appealing is a better fit. There's a ton of reasons why nerd culture finds certain female roles appealing other than physical looks. If all nerd culture cared about was sexualizing there female leads, kate upton would star in everything. Im not saying it never happens, but its not completely gender biast. Men get sexualized too and pushed to live up to unrealistic expectations. As hard as i try i wont become superhuman or a genius billionaire anytime soon. Was the gb84 cast sexualized no, but a majority male fan base is probably isnt going sexualize other men.
Im not Sure GB16 was even good for women. The female ceo that pushes the movie gets fired, the pro female director gets publicly crucified and the movie staring 4 female leads looses 100 million dollars. Im not blaming those 6 people, just points. I know the movie had a uphill battle. I really question how positive atc was especially compared to a movie like " a league of their own" which is a movie that does a little man bashing, but confronts issues, like star females being sexualized. Ive argued about box office with jurorno2. I dont care how much A league of their own made, its great movie and a story that needed to be told. ( fictional story/ real event)
So what's the point ?
To promote a positive female perception?
I think female celeberities promoting immoral behavior is worse for women than anthing that nerd culture does
Regardless ATC brought attention to the franchises, increased the fan base and gave us new props to build.. All great things

[JurorNo.2]

Once again, for the millionth time, I didn't say sexualizing a character was "wrong" or "bad." We all do it. I said male geek fans are used to female being presented to them in a certain way. And their reaction when they don't get their way isn't always the most kind.

I look forward to making this point...yet again...

the movie staring 4 female leads looses 100 million dollar....

As you say, we've all had the box office argument far too many times. That's all movie discussions online are anymore. One big argument about money none of us will ever see. Film analysis will live on somehow, but it won't be thanks to the Internet.

The female ceo that pushes the movie gets fired

Um, for reasons that had nothing to do with the movie, or being a woman, so that's irrelevant.

the pro female director gets publicly crucified

And the overwhelming majority of the public doesn't even remotely side with the ones who did the crucifying.

A League of Their Own, fun movie, but a bit too rose colored look at what women baseball players had to go through, especially lesbians. No movie is perfect and it's not my intention to crucify it, because that would be a silly overreaction on my part. Too bad the same common sense and charity wasn't visited on GB16.

I can't promise I'll be back to respond to any replies. I really do need that break...from discussing movies...Wow, lol...

[Sav C]

Quick question, would you consider Dana sexualized before and also after she transformed into Zuul?

By the way I totally get wanting a fair share of non-sexualized characters. It's only, well, fair.

Being a baseball fan I liked A League of Their Own. Yankees-fan specifically, but for awhile there--after they traded Miller, Beltran, and forced A-Rod into retirement--I considered switching to the Mets (but then it was just too much fun watching Sanchez's debut season to switch.)

[Commander_Jim]

She wasnt really sexualized so much as she was marginalised into the love interest/damsel in distress role in the film. Twice. Not that there was anything wrong with that. She was obviously sexualized by Venkman but the point was that Venkman is a shady lecherous type.

[JurorNo.2]

Quick question, would you consider Dana sexualized before and also after she transformed into Zuul?

By the way I totally get wanting a fair share of non-sexualized characters. It's only, well, fair.

Being a baseball fan I liked A League of Their Own. Yankees-fan specifically, but for awhile there--after they traded Miller, Beltran, and forced A-Rod into retirement--I considered switching to the Mets (but then it was just too much fun watching Sanchez's debut season to switch.)

Well what makes the whole Zuul thing work is the strange combination of sensuality and humor, lol.

[pferreira1983]

Are you really going to say with a straight face that those characters weren't sexualized? And btw, I'm not saying that's a bad thing. Just saying that is what male geeks tend to prefer. Plus all those characters followed the cliche of female action heroes, that of the super serious ass kicker (basically they were all trying to be the next Ripley ). As long as female characters follow those tropes, male geeks won't complain much.

Well, it's not a blatant form of sexualisation like some instances, but when Ripley starts off on the Sulaco, she's dressed in a full jumpsuit with leather coat, by the time she fights the Queen (and I'll allow some leeway for it being a hot and humid environment), she's ditched the top half of the jumpsuit, leather coat, given a massive gun and wearing a sweat-soaked T-shirt. It's pretty tame by today's standards, but it could be argued she's intended to be far more sexy/badass by the end of the film than near the start - and then there's the scene with her and the others emerging from the cryosleep tubes.

With Sarah, it was mostly in Terminator 2 - giving her tank tops for most of her wardrobe. Again, this can also be equally attributed to the "make her look badass" aspect as well.

Tom Welling was topless nearly every episode of Smallville. What point are you trying to make exactly?

GB16 challenged a lot of traditional tropes, and I do think parts of geek culture had trouble adjusting to this.

Yeah I thought women could be funny. The film did challenge my preconceptions.

[JurorNo.2]

Tom Welling was topless nearly every episode of Smallville. What point are you trying to make exactly?

The point I made earlier, that we all do it.

[pferreira1983]

The point I made earlier, that we all do it.

I tend to think the female characters such as Ripley and Sarah Connor aren't treated as badly compared to Welling who has to go half nude each episode.

[JurorNo.2]

The point I made earlier, that we all do it.

I tend to think the female characters such as Ripley and Sarah Connor aren't treated as badly compared to Welling who has to go half nude each episode.

And once again, lol, I didn't say it was a "bad" thing. (But you're not here as much, so I'll give you pass. ).

[ccv66]

My main point i dont think the movie helped gender equality, probably made it worse. Could have producer s shy away from casting female leads and created a boys vs girls mentality. I could see women feeling alienated by the alleged male resistance to an all female cast. There was unjust hate, but i dont think that was completely because theyre female. If kevin james was casted as the new superman or indiana jones, it probably get the same amount of backlash. If they casted 4 women&director that appealed to guys and girls equally or an mixed cast, it would have went over better. Ghostbusters is probably not the platform to break the mold considering its a male heavy fan base. Not that women are not welcome. I dont think i have ever herd guys complain that there are too many women..
The only thing I really hold againts ATC, is that if it was better received, we would have gotten another sequel in few years plus an animated movie

[JurorNo.2]

My main point i dont think the movie helped gender equality, probably made it worse.

I doubt a movie could make gender relations worse in society. Did this movie dismantle the UN as well? Come on, guys! The UN's doing a good job of that all by themselves.

an mixed cast, it would have went over better.

So all male is good, mixed cast is good, but all female is a problem? Interesting...

I dont think i have ever herd guys complain that there are too many women.

I heard it this year. "Fans" complaining that they never knew any girl GB fans growing up and therefore none ever existed. That girls were suddenly joining fandoms now because being a geek is cool. No, it's not all fans, but we can't pretend these types don't exist.

[Sav C]

an mixed cast, it would have went over better.

So all male is good, mixed cast is good, but all female is a problem? Interesting...

Honestly I fail to see how the gender of the cast had any affect on the final movie itself.

[ccv66]

I did say all female cast or a mixed cast. The gender wasn't as important as finding 4 people that got the fan base excited. That being said if i could only change one thing id probably pick a different directors over changing the cast. I dont think feig was a good fit. Im sure theres more women joining the fan base, but thats a good thing. Most likely the movie re sparked interest in old fans. Infact what i like best about ATC, it probably added a wider demographic to the fan base. I want to be debating about movies than nonone caring at all

[Kingpin]

To say nerd culture sexualizes women seems offensive to men and wrong.

It isn't with all female characters, and it isn't with all self-identified nerds, but there is a culture within the culture that does seem to have a habit/tendency to sexualise women - a study of comic book covers (and interiors), some female video game characters, amongst other things, do show it's more than a few isolated incidents.

Men get sexualized too and pushed to live up to unrealistic expectations.

Not nearly as often or as extreme.

[ccv66]

Alot of males super heros wearing skin tight spandex and all the fat ones are villians. Both get objectified. It probably happens more too women, but its a medium aimed towards younger males. It would would be like me complaining about how men are portrayed in romance novels. Go to the romance section at thr books store you ll find a bunch of covers with men with out there shirts. Fabio s everywhere

[JurorNo.2]

Alot of males super heros wearing skin tight spandex and all the fat ones are villians. Both get objectified. It probably happens more too women, but its a medium aimed towards younger males. It would would be like me complaining about how men are portrayed in romance novels. Go to the romance section at thr books store you ll find a bunch of covers with men with out there shirts. Fabio s everywhere

And once again, lol, I wasn't complaining about that. I was commenting on how furious male geeks can get when their concept of ideal femininity isn't fulfilled.

[Commander_Jim]

I was commenting on how furious male geeks can get when their concept of ideal femininity isn't fulfilled.

What concept is that? I mean, ever since Gal Gadot was cast as Wonder Woman there's been non-stop complaining that they cast a sexy, petite actress who isn't physically big and strong enough for WW. Meanwhile the 6ft 3 Gwendoline Christie (not exactly most men's idea of an attractive woman) has been a huge geek favourite in GoT as Brienne and the geekdom was ecstatic when she was cast in Star War 7 and upset when her role turned out to be so small. From what I can see the idea of geeks wanting barbie doll female characters in skintight outfits is nothing more than a stereotype since there is tons of evidence against it.

[JurorNo.2]

I was commenting on how furious male geeks can get when their concept of ideal femininity isn't fulfilled.

What concept is that? I mean, ever since Gal Gadot was cast as Wonder Woman there's been non-stop complaining that they cast a sexy, petite actress who isn't physically big and strong enough for WW. Meanwhile the 6ft 3 Gwendoline Christie (not exactly most men's idea of an attractive woman) has been a huge geek favourite in GoT as Brienne and the geekdom was ecstatic when she was cast in Star War 7 and upset when her role turned out to be so small. From what I can see the idea of geeks wanting barbie doll female characters in skintight outfits is nothing more than a stereotype since there is tons of evidence against it.

They didn't object to Wonder Woman being sexy (that would mean we're living in the Twilight Zone). They just wanted her to look more muscular, the way she is often drawn in modern comics. In fact, that goes along with the "ass kicker" trope I mentioned earlier. Male geeks want their female characters to be super ninjas. So actually their huge overreaction to Gadot demonstrates my point even more.

And geeks certainly don't want their female characters to be ordinary people who put laughs over action. It was cool when male GB's did it, but apparently not females.

And since when is Christie not attractive, isn't she a model?

You can defend geek culture without completely denying any flaw it might have. I'm not saying the group is worthless, I'm just saying they have personal biases. We all do.

[Commander_Jim]

Yes, but the point was they they wanted an actress who could play a physically strong character, not an actress who just looked good in a tight outfit and was otherwise totally unrealistic for the part. Isn't that exactly the same thing that women want from these characters? That they be cast for their suitability to a role, not just their T&A?

And since when is Christie not attractive, isn't she a model?

Probably since she looks extremely masculine (by Hollywood standards) and always plays "ugly" or "freak" roles. She isn't a model in the traditional sense, she's done nude arthouse shoots that made her unusual size the focal point.

[JurorNo.2]

Yes, but the point was they they wanted an actress who could play a physically strong character, not an actress who just looked good in a tight outfit and was otherwise totally unrealistic for the part. Isn't that exactly the same thing that women want from these characters? That they be cast for their suitability to a role, not just their T&A?

How can I put this delicately...they don't want a truly realistic looking muscular woman. They want a woman with muscles who is also super "hawt."

And once again, not saying that's a terrible thing. I'm saying fans tend to overreact when they don't get what they want.

And again, going back to Ghostbusters, geeks don't seem to want to see ordinary women with senses of humor in an action movie. They want their super serious ass kicker trope. Not to mention many of them want their mentor, Christopher Hitchens, proven right, that women "aren't funny" as a matter of nature.

Probably since she looks extremely masculine (by Hollywood standards) and always plays "ugly" or "freak" roles. She isn't a model in the traditional sense, she's done nude arthouse shoots that made her unusual size the focal point.

Gotcha, I admit I don't follow her work. Well, the thing about models is it's often a requirement to look weird, as long as they're striking.

[Kingpin]

Alot of males super heros wearing skin tight spandex and all the fat ones are villians.

Meanwhile there are quite a few costumes worn by female superheroes with impractically/unneccesarily exposed sections, again, in much greater extreme that most male superhero costumes.

And then there are plenty of villains who are given Greek god physiques.

It would would be like me complaining about how men are portrayed in romance novels. Go to the romance section at thr books store you ll find a bunch of covers with men with out there shirts. Fabio s everywhere

I agree that romance novel covers are frequently trite and aiming low in their appeal (not to mention the terrible quality of the written content).

[JurorNo.2]

You know, something else has been occurring to me. Feig all but said he wanted to portray Holtzmann as a gay character. And Feig also hinted the studio wasn't cool with broadcasting that. And who are some of the biggest fans of this movie and Holtzmann -- Tumblr girls. This is starting to remind me a bit of Number One from the original Star Trek pilot -- a female First Officer that the Captain had trouble viewing as a woman. The network soundly rejected her character, saying audiences wouldn't accept her. She was too unemotional (i.e. not feminine enough), never mind being SIC of a military-type organization.

Now I'm not playing the "homophobic" card, I think that label is used too often. But it goes back to what I was saying earlier that GB16 doesn't sexualize women in the traditional sense. I do think segments of the audience...weren't sure how to take it. What lesbians find attractive in women isn't always what straight men find attractive in women (same can often be said for gay men vs straight women, and what they find attractive in men).

[ccv66]

Im sure women dont want their lead men to be ordianrylooking in their love novel. The women in ATC are ordinary soccer moms. Fans over react to everything. If fans only focused on female appearances that would be wrong, but its just a small aspect of several things fans overreact to. It is the suppliers fault for not giving the consumer what they wanted, for not reading the audience. Atc was unfairly judged and scrutinized. The problem isnt with 4 ordinary women catching ghost, it's the fact the minute you call it ghostbusters its going under the microscope.

[JurorNo.2]

Im sure women dont want their lead men to be ordianrylooking in their love novel.

Probably not, no, lol (btw, I don't read those). But that's a love novel. We're talking comedies. And again I personally don't think we can underestimate the impact of Hitchens' foolish "women aren't funny" bit.

It is the suppliers fault for not giving the consumer what they wanted

Arts and entertainment throughout history have given the public things they didn't initially "want." That's not necessarily a fault. Yes, a movie is a product, but it's not a floor cleaner. It has every right (and duty) to challenge its audience occasionally.

the minute you call it ghostbusters its going under the microscope.

There we absolutely agree (though again, it's sad that Dirty Dozen and Ben-Hur apparently weren't worthy enough to be put under that same microscope).

[DarkSpectre]

Dirty Dozen and Ben Hur dont have a large cosplay aspect and logo recognition or theme song s that are embedded in the public psyche though

[JurorNo.2]

Dirty Dozen and Ben Hur dont have a large cosplay aspect and logo recognition or theme song s that are embedded in the public psyche though

Which doesn't say much for the public psyche.

Ack, btw, my own mistake, I meant the Magnificent Seven. Which DOES have a popular theme.

[DarkSpectre]

Your social analysis, aside Juror, I was basically reinforcing ccv's point about why ATC was under the microscope. It's a familiar brand.

EDIT: M7 makes more sense but the point still stands

[JurorNo.2]

Your social analysis, aside Juror, I was basically reinforcing ccv's point about why ATC was under the microscope. It's a familiar brand.

So are Ben-Hur and Magnificent Seven (the latter of which does have a popular theme). They are hardly obscure movies. I'm sorry but there is no real justification for that kind of inconsistency. Fans can't claim to care so much about originality and integrity and then go "Ho hum" when 50 year old classics are remade. It does end up looking like nothing more than bruised childhoods.