Discuss Ghostbusters: Afterlife, released on November 19, 2021 and directed by Jason Reitman.
#4964717
Ok. So I’ve watched GBA on digital and somethings occurred to me that hadn’t before which is: I think this movie changed quite a bit in editing, maybe more than we think.

We clearly see a statue of a dog standing up, right? With a staff? They released a toy of it didn’t they? The so called “sentinel” terror dog.

And when one of the terror dogs gets released…it does not look like a terror dog by Grooberson. It looks like that standing up creature.

So something changed. I think we were suppose to see that creature at some point. The creature that kills Egon looks like it.
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#4964719
Agreed. Something seems off about the Sentinel Dog and it's involvement in the film. I can't quite put my finger on it but I feel somewhere an entire subplot of the movie was removed. Especially involving the Gozer cult members. I don't feel the cult members from 100 years ago are completely gone. There's even officially licensed Afterlife shirts that suggest it.

I hope we learn more about Summerville in the future...
#4964721
deadderek wrote: January 5th, 2022, 1:25 am Agreed. Something seems off about the Sentinel Dog and it's involvement in the film. I can't quite put my finger on it but I feel somewhere an entire subplot of the movie was removed. Especially involving the Gozer cult members. I don't feel the cult members from 100 years ago are completely gone. There's even officially licensed Afterlife shirts that suggest it.

I hope we learn more about Summerville in the future...
Exactly. I was going to mention that. There’s a bit where Lucky talks about being a 4th generation Summerville citizen. There was suppose to be something there I think. Not to mention the sheriff character played by a name actor when we know he was in the movie way more. Dude got a single scene

In the deleted scene on the digital version it shows Jeanine taking the worlds fair coin from Egon’s place. I think in the “making of” special feature we catch of glimpse of Jeanine on the Bill Murray/Sigorney Weaver scene set. So I think she was going to maybe track down the OGB’s and tell them about Egon’s passing. That scene with Jeanine and Winston was suppose to be in the actual movie. But then they added the bit with him bringing the car back home. Maybe.

Also the kids talked about in interviews how much stuff got changed around. What’s interesting is that the Sentinel Terror Dog looks a lot like the Egyptian deity Anubis. I wonder if they were going to hint at something there.

I really hope a script is released at some point. I need to see what was suppose to happen
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#4964724
We DO see the Sentinel Terror dog though. It's the spirit form of the one in the mist that attacked Egon in the bigging. It has a VERY different look from the physical forms of the terror dogs we see later.

Also I agree that there was at least one or two subplots cut from the film which may also explain why Lucky and Trevor weren't as fleshed out as they should have been.
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#4964726
^And when Vinz is released from the Trap by Gary.

But yeah, I think they might have changed to so that the Sentinel is the name of Zuul and Vinz's spectral forms. But as the passage in Tobin's that Podcast reads, they must take on the form of beasts so like their corporeal forms are kinda de-evolved versions of their spectral form and they look more like a 4 legged animal monster than humanoid-bestial gods ala Anubis. As some photos of the temple set shown, there are two statues of The Sentinel form.
#4964730
So this is gonna make me sound dumb but I have no idea what the sentinel dog is. I just had my second viewing at home but I was kinda in and out with home stuff so I didn’t get a chance to sit down and really pay attention.

I thought there were only 2 dogs. One of them captured by Egon and the other one running amok?
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#4964733
So in the final version, it appears "Sentinel" refers to Zuul and Vinz in their spectral form. Zuul's seen briefly in mist form as she comes behind Egon. Vinz's when he is released from the Trap. The form is also indicated by their more humanoid form, standing on two legs instead of four, and their horns are curled instead of pointing outward.

Yes, just two. Zuul and Vinz again. Vinz was the one trapped and Zuul was the one that chased Egon and later possessed Callie and Lucky.
#4965345
It was a neat idea to see Zuul and Vinz in spectral forms but it does somewhat ask the question...do they need to have the sentinel form "break" out of a statue or mural of itself to turn into a corporeal form? If the Vinz sentinel form could just possess a person without the physical form like we see in the original film and in the wal-mart etc...it would have just flowed into Grooberson then would it not have?
#4965381
RealGhostbusterJay wrote: January 14th, 2022, 5:51 am It was a neat idea to see Zuul and Vinz in spectral forms but it does somewhat ask the question...do they need to have the sentinel form "break" out of a statue or mural of itself to turn into a corporeal form? If the Vinz sentinel form could just possess a person without the physical form like we see in the original film and in the wal-mart etc...it would have just flowed into Grooberson then would it not have?
It's one big ritual they are bound to that has to be done precisely. They have to break out of statues in their likeness in corporeal form. They have to scare the hell out of their host before they take their sentinel form and possess them.
#4965608
RealGhostbusterJay wrote:Was Zuul in spirit form or corporeal when Lucky was possessed?
Sentinel form (i.e. their spirit form). Only ghosts or spectral forms of deities can be trapped. When the RTV traps Zuul, it forcefully trapped it's spirit form. The corporeal transmogrification (i.e. the Terror Dog form) was reduced to ash as Zuul was trapped thus you see Callie appearing at the end then she tumbles down the stairs. Without Zuul's spirital essence, the corporeal physical form cannot hold so if comes apart and literally fell off of Callie in this case (but it appears that when Gozer is trapped OR earlier in GB1 when they crossed streams into the portal and reversed the polarity, the Terror Dog form is reduced to a semi-hard black husk that can be pulled apart/punched through etc). Thus when Gozer destroyed the Trap (and earlier when Vinz was released by Gary, Podcast, and Phoebe), Zuul emerged in her Sentinel form, possessed Lucky, and transmogrified into a corporeal Terror Dog form because the ritual was already completed.
#4965799
Sentinel Terror dogs are the ethereal form of Zuul & Vinz. The Making of Book has a section on it.

Also, the rules from GB 1 probably don't apply to the dogs the same way because of the spectral well of energy providing more PKE or something. Erik Burnham could explain it better.

Anybody who's read IDW also knows Idulnas tried to change the way Gozer's coming worked, so anything is possible.
#4965809
Yeah...there's some holes here. Zuul and Vinz were corporeal when they went after Louis and Dana and even Callie and Gary...but Lucky gets taken by the sentinel form? The "rules" for how this works are a bit too convenient for the scene with Lucky. Either they attack as solids or ghosts. I just didn't care for that potion....the dogs are about as useful as my yorkie cross small breed when the doorbell rings...they literally let Gozer die/ get trapped etc. I'm sure the rituals for how you explained the dogs to function makes sense to you but...it's lazy writing for this portion sadly at least for me. There was so much more potential there for these two. I hope we see dogs again but not with Gozer and maybe a more aggressive version.
#4965839
RealGhostbusterJay wrote: January 20th, 2022, 12:02 pm Yeah...there's some holes here. Zuul and Vinz were corporeal when they went after Louis and Dana and even Callie and Gary...but Lucky gets taken by the sentinel form? The "rules" for how this works are a bit too convenient for the scene with Lucky. Either they attack as solids or ghosts. I just didn't care for that potion....the dogs are about as useful as my yorkie cross small breed when the doorbell rings...they literally let Gozer die/ get trapped etc. I'm sure the rituals for how you explained the dogs to function makes sense to you but...it's lazy writing for this portion sadly at least for me. There was so much more potential there for these two. I hope we see dogs again but not with Gozer and maybe a more aggressive version.
Because they never show the part when they go into Sentinel form and possess them! That was brought up by Jason in I believe the trailer commentary he did, one thing they decided to answer like the on switch on the pack was how the Terror Dogs possess people, and the Sentinel form was hatched.

They are extremely loyal to Gozer to a fault. In the final battle, they did a close up on Gozer gesturing them to back off. They would never disobey her order or act without an order in general, hence why earlier, it wasn't until Ecto-1 wa in town when Vinz went after the RTV. It told him to go after it once it got its bearing in the disembodied form. He didn't immediately go, he waited for the order.
#4965854
We're going to disagree on the loyal to Gozer thing mate. Wave off or not no loyal subject LETS their Master die just because the Master told them to hold on. Mind you they did F all in the first film too when it was obvious Gozer was in trouble. If there's answers from the filmmakers on why the dogs worked the way they did, then good I guess. I just don't see how they were ghosts at the start when Egon catches Vinz and then Zuul kills him and then Vinz gets out and then they come out of the temple as ghosts again and then turn into real dogs and then again turn into ghosts? Either your a ghost or corporeal. If the dogs can eat dog food and smash through doors then why do they need to possess anyone? I suppose you have answer for that as well but again, kind of lazy writing. Any of my friends here who worked on it were either sets or packs and props so we didn't talk about the dogs much. I'm happy your enjoying the content put out there but like with much of this film lots of details seem blended over for broader strokes, However I don't argue that they did care very much about trying to do a good story.
#4965862
RealGhostbusterJay wrote: January 21st, 2022, 2:08 am We're going to disagree on the loyal to Gozer thing mate. Wave off or not no loyal subject LETS their Master die just because the Master told them to hold on. Mind you they did F all in the first film too when it was obvious Gozer was in trouble. If there's answers from the filmmakers on why the dogs worked the way they did, then good I guess. I just don't see how they were ghosts at the start when Egon catches Vinz and then Zuul kills him and then Vinz gets out and then they come out of the temple as ghosts again and then turn into real dogs and then again turn into ghosts? Either your a ghost or corporeal. If the dogs can eat dog food and smash through doors then why do they need to possess anyone?
Zuul and Vinz are gods and with that comes the power to shape shift. They each have an ethereal form. They each have a corporeal form.

With each world they visit, they are compelled out of their loyalty to Gozer to conduct the summoning ritual to the letter.
1. Manifest from statues in their honor in corporeal form
2. Choose a host, stalk the host, scare them, completely shift into an ethereal form and possess them
3. Reunite, "unite formally"
4. Take their places at the temple dedicated to Gozer
5. Struck by the energies in the disturbance, Transmogrify into their corporeal form, Gozer arrives
6. The end
7. Repeat on the next world and so on

Why do they have to possess beings on each planet then have sex? No, I don't have an answer for that other than it's required in the ritual. Who came up with the ritual and why and why do Gozer, Vinz, and Zuul go through with it? A deal made a long time ago? A curse? A compromise? Idk.

Egon disrupted the ritual. Vinz comes out of the statue in corporeal form. Egon opens the Trap and the ethereal part of Vinz is pulled out and into the trap then, the corporeal form as we see with Callie, disintegrated. Egon sped off in the truck. Zuul gave chase to free Vinz and continue the ritual. The Proton Cannon array activated in the meantime. They cross into the pit where the portal is and resets the ritual until the next day like a broken cuckoo clock. Zuul goes back into the statue like hitting rewind. Same with Vinz when he was accidentally released. Then the next day, the ritual started over again and they both succeeded in taking hosts.
#4965866
mrmichaelt wrote: January 21st, 2022, 4:18 am
RealGhostbusterJay wrote: January 21st, 2022, 2:08 am We're going to disagree on the loyal to Gozer thing mate. Wave off or not no loyal subject LETS their Master die just because the Master told them to hold on. Mind you they did F all in the first film too when it was obvious Gozer was in trouble. If there's answers from the filmmakers on why the dogs worked the way they did, then good I guess. I just don't see how they were ghosts at the start when Egon catches Vinz and then Zuul kills him and then Vinz gets out and then they come out of the temple as ghosts again and then turn into real dogs and then again turn into ghosts? Either your a ghost or corporeal. If the dogs can eat dog food and smash through doors then why do they need to possess anyone?
Zuul and Vinz are gods and with that comes the power to shape shift. They each have an ethereal form. They each have a corporeal form.

With each world they visit, they are compelled out of their loyalty to Gozer to conduct the summoning ritual to the letter.
1. Manifest from statues in their honor in corporeal form
2. Choose a host, stalk the host, scare them, completely shift into an ethereal form and possess them
3. Reunite, "unite formally"
4. Take their places at the temple dedicated to Gozer
5. Struck by the energies in the disturbance, Transmogrify into their corporeal form, Gozer arrives
6. The end
7. Repeat on the next world and so on

Why do they have to possess beings on each planet then have sex? No, I don't have an answer for that other than it's required in the ritual. Who came up with the ritual and why and why do Gozer, Vinz, and Zuul go through with it? A deal made a long time ago? A curse? A compromise? Idk.

Egon disrupted the ritual. Vinz comes out of the statue in corporeal form. Egon opens the Trap and the ethereal part of Vinz is pulled out and into the trap then, the corporeal form as we see with Callie, disintegrated. Egon sped off in the truck. Zuul gave chase to free Vinz and continue the ritual. The Proton Cannon array activated in the meantime. They cross into the pit where the portal is and resets the ritual until the next day like a broken cuckoo clock. Zuul goes back into the statue like hitting rewind. Same with Vinz when he was accidentally released. Then the next day, the ritual started over again and they both succeeded in taking hosts.
Zuul and Vinz are Gods? Gozer is a God. The dogs are minions. Minions with...sort of powers? I guess.

So Egon disrupted the ritual? Where was the statue Vinz and Zuul came out of at the start? that we don't see? The mural? so it cracked and broke and when the dogs returned to it in spirit form the mural repaired itself even though it was in one piece when the kids see it which is when Vinz is in the trap.? Then broke again later when the dogs left it to possess Gary and Callie and then Gary wrecked the packs in the temple? I saw the film a few times and I'll save you some text. I know what order things happen I simply find the holes in it irritating.

Why is the mural in once piece when the kids see it even though we see statues or murals crack and crumble to release the "spirit" version of the dogs which look to be pretty solid when breaking through doors or knocking over door men or wal-mart displays except when its in a trap or trying to scare a retired dirt farmer in a chair.

Where do you get the fact stalk and scare them? Anyone would be scared by a normal dog in some cases. Anyone would run. In fact a whole party does in the first film. I would say that simply choose a host and posses one would be sufficient. Lucky doesn't get stalked before she's possessed. She just gets possessed.

Look, the concept of the dogs has always been pretty neat but seriously, there's changes done here for this film which while they add some things do create a few more questions. It's ok to say not everything works out perfectly in a film.
#4965872
RealGhostbusterJay wrote: January 21st, 2022, 5:45 am Zuul and Vinz are Gods? Gozer is a God. The dogs are minions. Minions with...sort of powers? I guess.
Gozer is a lower case "g" god. Sorry, I meant demigods for Zuul and Vinz. Peter had a line about that in the 1st movie.
RealGhostbusterJay wrote: January 21st, 2022, 5:45 am So Egon disrupted the ritual? Where was the statue Vinz and Zuul came out of at the start? that we don't see? The mural? so it cracked and broke and when the dogs returned to it in spirit form the mural repaired itself even though it was in one piece when the kids see it which is when Vinz is in the trap.? Then broke again later when the dogs left it to possess Gary and Callie and then Gary wrecked the packs in the temple? I saw the film a few times and I'll save you some text. I know what order things happen I simply find the holes in it irritating.
Him trapping Vinz disrupts their ritual doesn't it?

Implicitly, yeah. Yes, wish they elaborated on that.
RealGhostbusterJay wrote: January 21st, 2022, 5:45 am Where do you get the fact stalk and scare them? Anyone would be scared by a normal dog in some cases. Anyone would run. In fact a whole party does in the first film. I would say that simply choose a host and posses one would be sufficient. Lucky doesn't get stalked before she's possessed. She just gets possessed.
Yes, I admit it's speculative but it's a pretty odd coincidence that in Louis, Dana, and Gary's cases, their scenes end with them screaming in terror. Then in their next scenes, they are possessed.

Lucky doesn't get stalked because the ritual is over, Gozer is already there. They don't need to repeat it.
RealGhostbusterJay wrote: January 21st, 2022, 5:45 am Look, the concept of the dogs has always been pretty neat but seriously, there's changes done here for this film which while they add some things do create a few more questions. It's ok to say not everything works out perfectly in a film.
I didn't say everything works out perfectly. Not by a long shot. I don't think much about the holes in the movies but when these questions are brought up here, I enjoy trying to rationalize and put things together. I wasn't trying to argue with you or anything like that. Yes, they definitely made changes like adding on the Sentinel form.
#4965881
I think what should have happened is that the well was built by the few remaining cult members of Gozer after its defeat in 1984. Those remaining members then performed some kind of ritual so that a "Sentinel" would be summoned to guard the pit until the spiritual energy was sufficient enough for Gozer to rise again. The Sentinel can be its own thing without having to look like a terror dog. Then the cult members sacrificed themselves into the pit to get the process started.

Egon then finds the well, and constructs the proton pack array. The Sentinel is disturbed by his presence and chases him down. Egon gets home, goes down the pole and grabs his proton pack. The Sentinel goes to attack, Egon fires the proton pack, but nothing happens (because the CRT emitters are blown). He reaches for a trap and is able to trap the Sentinel. He stumbles back up to his house and sits in a chair. His heart then gives out from the stress.

Then I'd have the kids go to the mine, discover what Egon had constructed and what was causing the Earthquakes. Instead of having the kids open the trap, I'd have the trap simply run out of power. The Sentinel then escapes and goes back to the mine and promptly destroys the Proton Pack array. That's when spiritual activity starts swirling around. Vinz and Zuul emerge and possess Callie and Grooberson. They perform the ritual and the temple blows out. Gozer then emerges. Etc. Etc.
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#4965889
mrmichaelt wrote: January 21st, 2022, 6:44 am
RealGhostbusterJay wrote: January 21st, 2022, 5:45 am Zuul and Vinz are Gods? Gozer is a God. The dogs are minions. Minions with...sort of powers? I guess.
Gozer is a lower case "g" god. Sorry, I meant demigods for Zuul and Vinz. Peter had a line about that in the 1st movie.
RealGhostbusterJay wrote: January 21st, 2022, 5:45 am So Egon disrupted the ritual? Where was the statue Vinz and Zuul came out of at the start? that we don't see? The mural? so it cracked and broke and when the dogs returned to it in spirit form the mural repaired itself even though it was in one piece when the kids see it which is when Vinz is in the trap.? Then broke again later when the dogs left it to possess Gary and Callie and then Gary wrecked the packs in the temple? I saw the film a few times and I'll save you some text. I know what order things happen I simply find the holes in it irritating.
Him trapping Vinz disrupts their ritual doesn't it?

Implicitly, yeah. Yes, wish they elaborated on that.
RealGhostbusterJay wrote: January 21st, 2022, 5:45 am Where do you get the fact stalk and scare them? Anyone would be scared by a normal dog in some cases. Anyone would run. In fact a whole party does in the first film. I would say that simply choose a host and posses one would be sufficient. Lucky doesn't get stalked before she's possessed. She just gets possessed.
Yes, I admit it's speculative but it's a pretty odd coincidence that in Louis, Dana, and Gary's cases, their scenes end with them screaming in terror. Then in their next scenes, they are possessed.

Lucky doesn't get stalked because the ritual is over, Gozer is already there. They don't need to repeat it.
RealGhostbusterJay wrote: January 21st, 2022, 5:45 am Look, the concept of the dogs has always been pretty neat but seriously, there's changes done here for this film which while they add some things do create a few more questions. It's ok to say not everything works out perfectly in a film.
I didn't say everything works out perfectly. Not by a long shot. I don't think much about the holes in the movies but when these questions are brought up here, I enjoy trying to rationalize and put things together. I wasn't trying to argue with you or anything like that. Yes, they definitely made changes like adding on the Sentinel form.
I'll give you the demigod. Good catch there. The stopping of the ritual I don't doubt...just where they emerged out of if the mural was whole when the kids see it. Maybe there were other statues in the temple?

I'm not saying the movie is bad. I enjoyed it a lot. 5 times in a week a lot. But on the opposite of yourself, you like to detail questions with answers with as much from the film as you can, that's great. I did the same thing when asking questions but while I liked the film I'm not going to not ask a question or critique something just because friends worked on it or because it was a GB film.

There's holes in the story and I think WAY too much is left for us to speculate on from timelines and personal relationships to lore add ons and changes. Why is Gozer is present when the dog takes Lucky?. How can Gozer be there in any form without the dogs? Because the dogs are needed to bring her/ him, not keep her/him? Who stated that they weren't needed to keep her/him here? TBH I did the same thing with the video game. "How can the wands now just have slime chargers on them?"

I don't dislike your dedication to facts so long as we can both admit there's holes here. other then that well and the Starbucks thing I can't wait to do a 3 movie marathon again.
#4965907
RealGhostbusterJay wrote: January 21st, 2022, 12:19 pm just where they emerged out of if the mural was whole when the kids see it. Maybe there were other statues in the temple?
Yes, when the children went down the mine elevator and bts photos of the temple set, it looked like total, there were two sets of statues of them: their Terror Dog forms and their Sentinel forms.
RealGhostbusterJay wrote: January 21st, 2022, 12:19 pm There's holes in the story and I think WAY too much is left for us to speculate on from timelines and personal relationships to lore add ons and changes. Why is Gozer is present when the dog takes Lucky?. How can Gozer be there in any form without the dogs? Because the dogs are needed to bring her/ him, not keep her/him? Who stated that they weren't needed to keep her/him here? TBH I did the same thing with the video game. "How can the wands now just have slime chargers on them?"
Yeah, curious what would have happened to Gozer if Phoebe and Podcast would have been able trap both Zuul and Vinz after Gozer's arrival.

I would guess they were needed to bring Gozer and then acted as its anchors to the physical plane something like a witch's familiar. So with Vinz present after, it was able to stay but maintain only a half-way form until Zuul was freed.
RealGhostbusterJay wrote: January 21st, 2022, 12:19 pm I don't dislike your dedication to facts so long as we can both admit there's holes here. other then that well and the Starbucks thing
Oh yeah, there's holes and holes going back to the first movie, I don't contest that.
#4965925
RealGhostbusterJay wrote:Some fiends here worked on the temple set and temple packs. Maybe I'll see if they have any other shots they took on set and maybe there's other dog statues there we don't see on screen
Yeah, I'm sure there's more of that set we didn't see in the movie itself because they kept it pretty dark for the most part. You're friends with the Alberta Ghostbusters who worked with Peter White? Cool.
#4965958
I'm a member of the Alberta Ghostbusters. Yeah I've known Peter for years from Star Wars stuff we used to do. Same with some of the other crew. Others were members of our group who got asked to help. Others are friends that weren't in GB fandom at all. It was great they really resourced anyone who had skills they needed.
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