Discuss all things Ghostbusters here, unless they would be better suited in one of the few forums below.
By RichardLess
#4898337
JurorNo.2 wrote:
RichardLess wrote:He starts the film using his position in academia to get a girl, he finishes using his new business doing the exact same thing.
Well that is definitely true, but that college girl and Dana aren't really the same thing. And he ends up treating Dana a lot better. That's a big change.
I don't think anyone said they were the same thing, only that he was doing the same thing. Dana and Blonde Lady are totes different, no argument there. Does he end up treating Dana a lot better? "the old ball and chain"? Falling asleep everytime she brings up marriage. Oh yeah. That's a *big* change
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By JurorNo.2
#4898342
RichardLess wrote:
JurorNo.2 wrote:
Well that is definitely true, but that college girl and Dana aren't really the same thing. And he ends up treating Dana a lot better. That's a big change.
I don't think anyone said they were the same thing, only that he was doing the same thing. Dana and Blonde Lady are totes different, no argument there. Does he end up treating Dana a lot better? "the old ball and chain"? Falling asleep everytime she brings up marriage. Oh yeah. That's a *big* change
Well ok, lol, but they didn't know they were making the sequel at the time. Plus Peter can be bad at day to day relationships and still prove himself to be a hero to Dana, which he definitely was at the end of GB84.
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By RichardLess
#4898345
JurorNo.2 wrote:
RichardLess wrote:
I don't think anyone said they were the same thing, only that he was doing the same thing. Dana and Blonde Lady are totes different, no argument there. Does he end up treating Dana a lot better? "the old ball and chain"? Falling asleep everytime she brings up marriage. Oh yeah. That's a *big* change
Well ok, lol, but they didn't know they were making the sequel at the time. Plus Peter can be bad at day to day relationships and still prove himself to be a hero to Dana, which he definitely was at the end of GB84.
Agreed. He is a hero to Dana. Though he promises as much when the first meet, no? "I'll solve your little problem and you'll say, Pete Venkman's a guy who can get things done" etc. I just don't see an Arc there.
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By JurorNo.2
#4898348
RichardLess wrote:
Agreed. He is a hero to Dana. Though he promises as much when the first meet, no? "I'll solve your little problem and you'll say, Pete Venkman's a guy who can get things done" etc. I just don't see an Arc there.
I'd say that's where the arc starts! Dana has been brutally honest with him: he's a game show host, not a serious person. And Peter is taking up that challenge to prove her wrong. Before meeting Dana, he wouldn't have cared.
By RichardLess
#4898349
JurorNo.2 wrote:
RichardLess wrote:
Agreed. He is a hero to Dana. Though he promises as much when the first meet, no? "I'll solve your little problem and you'll say, Pete Venkman's a guy who can get things done" etc. I just don't see an Arc there.
I'd say that's where the arc starts! Dana has been brutally honest with him: he's a game show host, not a serious person. And Peter is taking up that challenge to prove her wrong. Before meeting Dana, he wouldn't have cared.
He's trying to get in her pants lol she said he's a game show host, that's how she sees him. He doesn't care about the ghost, he see's it as an opportunity to get with this woman, which ends up working lol. When they meet up near the fountain he's still trying to get a date with her. He can't even pronounce Hittites lol
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By BatDan
#4898361
Rich, i think you're focused pointing out Venkman flaws as a character...but that's what makes him funny and relatable. Lol. Wouldn't be that entertaining if he became all chivalrous at the end, it's better for a comedy character to overcome obstacles rather than dramatic realizations.

You pointed out his driving force behind catching the ghost is to win a date with Dana. Which in itself is a plot point. ;-)
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By RichardLess
#4898362
BatDan wrote:Rich, i think you're focused pointing out Venkman flaws as a character...but that's what makes him funny and relatable. Lol. Wouldn't be that entertaining if he became all chivalrous at the end, it's better for a comedy character to overcome obstacles rather than dramatic realizations.

You pointed out his driving force behind catching the ghost is to win a date with Dana. Which in itself is a plot point. ;-)
There is literally nothing I disagree with here. Venkman is a flawed character and that's why we love him.
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By RichardLess
#4898393
BatDan wrote:Lol same.

But I'm countering your point on how his actions add up to nothing nor have any themes. That's what I'm getting at.
Hmm? Now where did I say his actions add up to nothing? That was never my point good sir. Nor did I say Venkman has no theme(that's the movie as a whole). I said he has no Arc.

I just want to make sure, you watched the entire video right? Because the video is saying this is all a positive, that it works in Ghostbusters favour. I'm not sure if you think I'm dissing the movie or what but the video is pretty much saying : This is part of what makes Ghostbusters special. It's not a negative thing.

Just to be clear: I don't want Venkman to be any different than he appears in the film. Every choice they made with the character was perfect. Had Venkman suggested crossing the streams, it would have rang false, even though it would have been an arcish moment, it would've been to the film's detriment. The film is as perfect as can be. I just want to make that clear.
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By Sav C
#4898406
Someone may have mentioned this above, but I was thinking in many cases it is perfectly acceptable for the plot to serve as the theme. So if there isn't some discernable theme seperate from the plot, than the plot is the theme.

I provided my explanation as to Venkman's arc. Just because by Ghostbusters II the relationship has fallen apart, it doesn't mean Venkman is unchanged.
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By Noremon
#4898410
I just wanted to say I agree with JurorNo.2's 1ST comment RE: GB2's positivity. Also BatDan's 1ST comment RE: the story & character arcs.

Even though it's cheesy I adore "Ghostbusters II" because it plays off the first movie where they saved the world from apocalypse. They've seen how things can end and even against the law or other people's opinions want to protect the good of the city/world. It's not something they would get to if not for their growth as heroes over the first movie. In the first movie they are a mix of reasons for doing what they do from money to scientific interest. Not all of them are believers in either ghosts, and especially not the cause. By the end they are prepared to sacrifice their lives for it. Which carries into the sequel. Even with no financing and a legal ban on ghostbusting they still try to do something.
By RichardLess
#4898411
Sav C wrote:Someone may have mentioned this above, but I was thinking in many cases it is perfectly acceptable for the plot to serve as the theme. So if there isn't some discernable theme seperate from the plot, than the plot is the theme.

I provided my explanation as to Venkman's arc. Just because by Ghostbusters II the relationship has fallen apart, it doesn't mean Venkman is unchanged.
It does if someone says the crux of Venkman's overall arc is his relationship with Dana. Venkman's relationship with Dana isn't his character arc, it's Dana's.
By Sav C
#4898412
RichardLess wrote:
Sav C wrote:Someone may have mentioned this above, but I was thinking in many cases it is perfectly acceptable for the plot to serve as the theme. So if there isn't some discernable theme seperate from the plot, than the plot is the theme.

I provided my explanation as to Venkman's arc. Just because by Ghostbusters II the relationship has fallen apart, it doesn't mean Venkman is unchanged.
It does if someone says the crux of Venkman's overall arc is his relationship with Dana. Venkman's relationship with Dana isn't his character arc, it's Dana's.
You mean because Dana learns to like him? I don't know if I quite follow your logic there. Perhaps it's a mutual character arc?
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By RichardLess
#4898417
Sav C wrote:
RichardLess wrote:
It does if someone says the crux of Venkman's overall arc is his relationship with Dana. Venkman's relationship with Dana isn't his character arc, it's Dana's.
You mean because Dana learns to like him? I don't know if I quite follow your logic there. Perhaps it's a mutual character arc?
That's right. And no it wouldn't be a mutual character arc since Venkman wants her from the get go. Also part of her arc is coming to terms with what's happening to her "No I'm sorry I don't believe in any of those things" quickly turns into her becoming possessed by a Demi God and turning into a terror dog.
#4898432
RichardLess wrote:Hey doc venkman relax with the dislike button. I get it. You disagree.
Isn't that the point of the button? LOL

I disagree with a lot of what you're saying, but I made that clear. I'm still reading the thread, I'm just not responding anymore because it basically breaks down to the fact that you seem stubborn and unwilling to open up to the ideas that others are sharing (myself included at a time). It's fine to disagree, but you're the one who said you want discussion, but then basically everything that anyone says your responses basically break down to "nope, that's not what happened." So it became frustrating to try to continue the conversation, so I stopped.

It is funny that you assumed it was me and felt the need to publicly call me out though.

Doesn't mean I won't continue to follow the topic and appropriately use the like/dislike button when it applies, lol.
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By Sav C
#4898434
RichardLess wrote:
Sav C wrote: You mean because Dana learns to like him? I don't know if I quite follow your logic there. Perhaps it's a mutual character arc?
That's right. And no it wouldn't be a mutual character arc since Venkman wants her from the get go. Also part of her arc is coming to terms with what's happening to her "No I'm sorry I don't believe in any of those things" quickly turns into her becoming possessed by a Demi God and turning into a terror dog.
What I'm saying is that what Venkman wants from the relationship changes. It strikes me as being deeper than anything he had been open to previously, perhaps discovering a different side to relationships that he hadn't cared for before.
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By RichardLess
#4898436
Doctor Venkman wrote:
RichardLess wrote:Hey doc venkman relax with the dislike button. I get it. You disagree.
Isn't that the point of the button? LOL

I disagree with a lot of what you're saying, but I made that clear. I'm still reading the thread, I'm just not responding anymore because it basically breaks down to the fact that you seem stubborn and unwilling to open up to the ideas that others are sharing (myself included at a time). It's fine to disagree, but you're the one who said you want discussion, but then basically everything that anyone says your responses basically break down to "nope, that's not what happened." So it became frustrating to try to continue the conversation, so I stopped.

It is funny that you assumed it was me and felt the need to publicly call me out though.

Doesn't mean I won't continue to follow the topic and appropriately use the like/dislike button when it applies, lol.
I'm willing to open up to any idea that makes sense to me. Again we see things differently. Why can't that be enough for you?
Also, I didn't assume it was you. I know it was. There's a notification box that tells you who likes and dislikes your posts. You were disliking things that had nothing to do with the conversation and it's clear you were doing it indiscriminately, which shows you aren't disliking the posts but disliking me. Which makes it a tad personal. But fine. Dislike to your hearts content.
#4898440
RichardLess wrote:
Doctor Venkman wrote:
Isn't that the point of the button? LOL

I disagree with a lot of what you're saying, but I made that clear. I'm still reading the thread, I'm just not responding anymore because it basically breaks down to the fact that you seem stubborn and unwilling to open up to the ideas that others are sharing (myself included at a time). It's fine to disagree, but you're the one who said you want discussion, but then basically everything that anyone says your responses basically break down to "nope, that's not what happened." So it became frustrating to try to continue the conversation, so I stopped.

It is funny that you assumed it was me and felt the need to publicly call me out though.

Doesn't mean I won't continue to follow the topic and appropriately use the like/dislike button when it applies, lol.
I'm willing to open up to any idea that makes sense to me. Again we see things differently. Why can't that be enough for you?
Also, I didn't assume it was you. I know it was. There's a notification box that tells you who likes and dislikes your posts. You were disliking things that had nothing to do with the conversation and it's clear you were doing it indiscriminately, which shows you aren't disliking the posts but disliking me. Which makes it a tad personal. But fine. Dislike to your hearts content.
Odd, I don't receive that notification box when people hit things on my posts. And no, it wasn't personal. I was disliking the things you were saying regardless of what you might think.

It's incredibly odd that you say things like "we see things differently. Why can't that be enough for you?" but then feel the need to publicly call me out for hitting a button that literally says I disagree with what you're saying.

And it's quite clear that you're not as open minded as you think. This entire thread is just people trying to explain a viewpoint while you stubbornly tell everyone they're wrong. I've honestly lost count of how many times people have explained how Venkman changes throughout the film, and you basically say "No he doesn't." You say you want discussion on film, but you won't open your mind "unless it makes sense" but therein lies the problem. That's another way of essentially say your mind is made up and you won't listen to other ideas because they don't make sense to you.

You can't have a worthwhile discussion on something if you won't open your mind to a viewpoint that clearly makes sense to the majority of people in the thread. You're the only one saying that Venkman doesn't change. So it clearly is a viewpoint that makes sense. So how is there to be a discussion?

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Seeing things differently is fine. People don't have to agree. But what kind of discussion are you expecting then? You want discussion. But then you shut down discussion with "we see things differently, move on." So again, how is there to be a discussion?
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By BatDan
#4898445
RichardLess wrote:
BatDan wrote:Lol same.

But I'm countering your point on how his actions add up to nothing nor have any themes. That's what I'm getting at.
Hmm? Now where did I say his actions add up to nothing? That was never my point good sir. Nor did I say Venkman has no theme(that's the movie as a whole). I said he has no Arc.

I just want to make sure, you watched the entire video right? Because the video is saying this is all a positive, that it works in Ghostbusters favour. I'm not sure if you think I'm dissing the movie or what but the video is pretty much saying : This is part of what makes Ghostbusters special. It's not a negative thing.

Just to be clear: I don't want Venkman to be any different than he appears in the film. Every choice they made with the character was perfect. Had Venkman suggested crossing the streams, it would have rang false, even though it would have been an arcish moment, it would've been to the film's detriment. The film is as perfect as can be. I just want to make that clear.
No, this is all in good fun. This is a discussion thread, and therefore we must indulge in nerdy discussion, yes? Okay cool.

Yeah, I understand that the video's stance on GB being about "nothing" is viewed as positive. I just happen to disagree and elaborating on why.

I think that mindset is overlooking the themes and arcs that are IN the movie and what give it it's weight, charm, and heart to begin with.

I mean, i do agree theres a movie called Ghostbusters that's about nothing and doesn't have much in way of theme, character or substance...but I don't think it was made in 1984. ;-)
By RichardLess
#4898450
Doctor Venkman wrote:
RichardLess wrote:
I'm willing to open up to any idea that makes sense to me. Again we see things differently. Why can't that be enough for you?
Also, I didn't assume it was you. I know it was. There's a notification box that tells you who likes and dislikes your posts. You were disliking things that had nothing to do with the conversation and it's clear you were doing it indiscriminately, which shows you aren't disliking the posts but disliking me. Which makes it a tad personal. But fine. Dislike to your hearts content.
Odd, I don't receive that notification box when people hit things on my posts. And no, it wasn't personal. I was disliking the things you were saying regardless of what you might think.

It's incredibly odd that you say things like "we see things differently. Why can't that be enough for you?" but then feel the need to publicly call me out for hitting a button that literally says I disagree with what you're saying.

And it's quite clear that you're not as open minded as you think. This entire thread is just people trying to explain a viewpoint while you stubbornly tell everyone they're wrong. I've honestly lost count of how many times people have explained how Venkman changes throughout the film, and you basically say "No he doesn't." You say you want discussion on film, but you won't open your mind "unless it makes sense" but therein lies the problem. That's another way of essentially say your mind is made up and you won't listen to other ideas because they don't make sense to you.

You can't have a worthwhile discussion on something if you won't open your mind to a viewpoint that clearly makes sense to the majority of people in the thread. You're the only one saying that Venkman doesn't change. So it clearly is a viewpoint that makes sense. So how is there to be a discussion?

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Seeing things differently is fine. People don't have to agree. But what kind of discussion are you expecting then? You want discussion. But then you shut down discussion with "we see things differently, move on." So again, how is there to be a discussion?
Really? You don't see the thing that has a bell icon on it? Everytime someone likes/dislikes a post it shows up, telling me who and when. Anyone else want to chime in here or am I somehow the only one that has this function?(perhaps you've turned the settings off somehow)

Let me be clear: this is an opinion thread. No ones opinion can be wrong. I can disagree with that opinion but that doesn't make you wrong. We aren't dealing in fact here. Is that open minded enough for you? I am not the final judge and jury here. I just created the thread. I can disagree and say why I disagree, but that doesn't mean you are wrong.
When did I shut down this discussion? I called you out for making this personal by disliking every comment of mine, even ones off topic. You disliked my awesome Noah the ark joke. That hurt :( but your constant dislikes are weird and unusual. I've had disagreements with many people here, including Juror and Alpha and others. I don't think they've been quite as obsessed as you with the whole disliking thing but I guess too each their own? I don't know if I would say you are abusing the dislike button but when you've made your points known and disliked a few of the persons comments, it's time to relax. Personally I'm not one to use the dislike button anyways. I'd rather my words do the talking. Oh sure I've used it in extreme cases but usually those are trolls and the like.

So just to recap, your opinions are your opinions. I think I've shown why I disagree with them, at least to my own satisfaction. I love debate and discussion but you've gotten it mixed up somewhere that I don't. It's when things get personal, or seem to get personal, that I don't care for.
By RichardLess
#4898454
Sav C wrote:
RichardLess wrote:
That's right. And no it wouldn't be a mutual character arc since Venkman wants her from the get go. Also part of her arc is coming to terms with what's happening to her "No I'm sorry I don't believe in any of those things" quickly turns into her becoming possessed by a Demi God and turning into a terror dog.
What I'm saying is that what Venkman wants from the relationship changes. It strikes me as being deeper than anything he had been open to previously, perhaps discovering a different side to relationships that he hadn't cared for before.
You may have a point there. Does he initially see Dana as just a piece of meat that he can use as a one night stand but then grow more attached? Perhaps. But once again I might point out that when he visits Dana's apartment he tells her that he's madly in love with her and they only meet once more at the fountain before she becomes Zuul. Was he being earnest, or just trying to charm her? I'm not sure we get the answer to that and it all depends on your own POV. I would say when Venkman *really* changes is when he meets Oscar in Gb2. Venkman has somewhat of an arc in that film, no doubt.
By RichardLess
#4898455
BatDan wrote:
RichardLess wrote:
Hmm? Now where did I say his actions add up to nothing? That was never my point good sir. Nor did I say Venkman has no theme(that's the movie as a whole). I said he has no Arc.

I just want to make sure, you watched the entire video right? Because the video is saying this is all a positive, that it works in Ghostbusters favour. I'm not sure if you think I'm dissing the movie or what but the video is pretty much saying : This is part of what makes Ghostbusters special. It's not a negative thing.

Just to be clear: I don't want Venkman to be any different than he appears in the film. Every choice they made with the character was perfect. Had Venkman suggested crossing the streams, it would have rang false, even though it would have been an arcish moment, it would've been to the film's detriment. The film is as perfect as can be. I just want to make that clear.
No, this is all in good fun. This is a discussion thread, and therefore we must indulge in nerdy discussion, yes? Okay cool.

Yeah, I understand that the video's stance on GB being about "nothing" is viewed as positive. I just happen to disagree and elaborating on why.

I think that mindset is overlooking the themes and arcs that are IN the movie and what give it it's weight, charm, and heart to begin with.

I mean, i do agree theres a movie called Ghostbusters that's about nothing and doesn't have much in way of theme, character or substance...but I don't think it was made in 1984. ;-)
I legit "lol'd" at that last paragraph. Well done sir. Well done indeed.
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By Sav C
#4898456
RichardLess wrote:
Sav C wrote: What I'm saying is that what Venkman wants from the relationship changes. It strikes me as being deeper than anything he had been open to previously, perhaps discovering a different side to relationships that he hadn't cared for before.
You may have a point there. Does he initially see Dana as just a piece of meat that he can use as a one night stand but then grow more attached? Perhaps. But once again I might point out that when he visits Dana's apartment he tells her that he's madly in love with her and they only meet once more at the fountain before she becomes Zuul. Was he being earnest, or just trying to charm her? I'm not sure we get the answer to that and it all depends on your own POV. I would say when Venkman *really* changes is when he meets Oscar in Gb2. Venkman has somewhat of an arc in that film, no doubt.
I have a feeling he was just trying to charm her, but maybe I'm wrong. He does try to write her off as a "piece of meat" in the holding cell, but perhaps the situation was too far out for that to mean anything. I think the possibility is certainly there for the arc; I'd say he does arc but it is a fine line I suppose.

It seems a little quick for him to fall madly in love, but I really don't have enough experience with dating and whatnot to really make an accurate comment on that. The only time I've told a girl I love her was through Facebook messenger. I woke up the next morning, and seeing she hadn't read it yet I got anxious and asked her not to read it. Of course when you ask someone not to do something, they always do it anyway, luckily in my case she responded well to it. Still, judging from that I'm pretty pathetic. Either that or just meant for a simpler time, but honestly I do think I'm pathetic none the less. Oh well. Should never of asked her not to read it, and really should of told her face to face. With that said we haven't had any private face to face moments in a year. There are always other people around, so at very least by writing to her I didn't put her on the spot in front of her friends.
By BatDan
#4898457
RichardLess wrote:
BatDan wrote:
No, this is all in good fun. This is a discussion thread, and therefore we must indulge in nerdy discussion, yes? Okay cool.

Yeah, I understand that the video's stance on GB being about "nothing" is viewed as positive. I just happen to disagree and elaborating on why.

I think that mindset is overlooking the themes and arcs that are IN the movie and what give it it's weight, charm, and heart to begin with.

I mean, i do agree theres a movie called Ghostbusters that's about nothing and doesn't have much in way of theme, character or substance...but I don't think it was made in 1984. ;-)
I legit "lol'd" at that last paragraph. Well done sir. Well done indeed.
Haha. Thanks, rich. Glad to be of service.

If I made that joke a year ago...oh boy...would have to go into my internet bomb shelter.
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By RichardLess
#4898460
Sav C wrote:
RichardLess wrote:
You may have a point there. Does he initially see Dana as just a piece of meat that he can use as a one night stand but then grow more attached? Perhaps. But once again I might point out that when he visits Dana's apartment he tells her that he's madly in love with her and they only meet once more at the fountain before she becomes Zuul. Was he being earnest, or just trying to charm her? I'm not sure we get the answer to that and it all depends on your own POV. I would say when Venkman *really* changes is when he meets Oscar in Gb2. Venkman has somewhat of an arc in that film, no doubt.
I have a feeling he was just trying to charm her, but maybe I'm wrong. He does try to write her off as a "piece of meat" in the holding cell, but perhaps the situation was too far out for that to mean anything. I think the possibility is certainly there for the arc; I'd say he does arc but it is a fine line I suppose.

It seems a little quick for him to fall madly in love, but I really don't have enough experience with dating and whatnot to really make an accurate comment on that. The only time I've told a girl I love her was through Facebook messenger. I woke up the next morning, and seeing she hadn't read it yet I got anxious and asked her not to read it. Of course when you ask someone not to do something, they always do it anyway, luckily in my case she responded well to it. Still, judging from that I'm pretty pathetic. Either that or just meant for a simpler time, but honestly I do think I'm pathetic none the less. Oh well. Should never of asked her not to read it, and really should of told her face to face. With that said we haven't had any private face to face moments in a year. There are always other people around, so at very least by writing to her I didn't put her on the spot in front of her friends.
Guess what Sav? That's not pathetic at all. You only live once so if you truly love someone, express that love. If they don't say it back, yes it hurts and yes you feel like a fool, but you are following your heart and that's always a wise choice, you can't control how you feel and you never know what the other person is feeling until you make the first move. If you keep love bottled up inside, you'll burst. Maybe telling her to her face might've been the better choice but it could have made her feel awkward and resulted in something you'd come to regret. What I can guarantee is later on in life you'll look back on this moment and laugh to yourself. Or cringe. Or both. It's all apart of living.
Cherish your time as a teenager, they will most likely be the best years of your life. I know every adult says that and it's cliche, even I thought it was clichè as a teenager, but once you hit a certain age time just goes by so quickly you'll yearn for those carefree days when your entire life was ahead of you. Enjoy it. Like all good things, it wasn't meant to last.
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By Sav C
#4898461
RichardLess wrote:Guess what Sav? That's not pathetic at all. You only live once so if you truly love someone, express that love. If they don't say it back, yes it hurts and yes you feel like a fool, but you are following your heart and that's always a wise choice, you can't control how you feel and you never know what the other person is feeling until you make the first move. If you keep love bottled up inside, you'll burst. Maybe telling her to her face might've been the better choice but it could have made her feel awkward and resulted in something you'd come to regret. What I can guarantee is later on in life you'll look back on this moment and laugh to yourself. Or cringe. Or both. It's all apart of living.
Cherish your time as a teenager, they will most likely be the best years of your life. I know every adult says that and it's cliche, even I thought it was clichè as a teenager, but once you hit a certain age time just goes by so quickly you'll yearn for those carefree days when your entire life was ahead of you. Enjoy it. Like all good things, it wasn't meant to last.
Thanks Richard, that puts my mind at ease. Sometimes I get neurotic thinking over things I could've potentially done better in hindsight, and in times like that it is probably best to just relax.

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