Discuss all things Ghostbusters here, unless they would be better suited in one of the few forums below.
#4972879
**Apologies if this has been mentioned before**

GB2 holds a special place in my heart. I feel like it’s been unfairly maligned over the years & so I carry a special torch for it. No it’s not perfect. But one of the criticism the movie seems to get, is something I’m sure you’ve all heard

“Why does no one believe in ghosts? They saved the world! Shouldn’t everyone believe in ghosts?”

I’ve never understood this criticism. How many characters explicitly say they don’t believe in ghosts? The judge? Hardmeyer? And…Jason’s Dad? I guess you could maybe throw in the doctor at the psychiatric ward.

That’s not a lot. How does 3-4 characters not believing in ghosts turn into “no one believes in ghosts? That doesn’t make sense!”

The movie shows the GB’s still being beloved by the city. So I’ve never got the “hey! Why doesn’t everyone believe in ghosts now?”

Even if it were true that a lot of people didn’t believe in ghosts…I still don’t think it’s a valid criticism. We went to the moon multiple times. And there is a sizeable amount of people who don’t believe it happened. The earth has known to be round for hundreds and hundreds of years…but there is a sizeable contingent of people who believe it’s flat.

It’s not unreasonable to think people would constantly be questioning the legitimacy of the Ghostbusters even if they were as busy as in the cartoon.
Sav C liked this
#4972882
My only complaint about the movie is that number 3 didn't come out a year or two later. Seriously, I don't know why there is so much negativity towards the movie. I love the 1st. But the 2nd will always have a bigger spot in my heart. I've seen them both that seems like 100's of times. But I've seen the 2nd probably 3 to 1.
#4972884
Plus, even if it's true that lots of people in GB2 didn't believe in ghosts, in the first film, you have Walter Peck who thinks the Ghostbusters are just a bunch of grifters, and the ghosts are all part of some fancy electronic light show (I'm not even sure he was convinced of the paranormal after getting "slimed" with a truckload of marshmallow goop; he probably thought it was just shaving cream or something ;) ), and surely Peck wasn't the only skeptic in 1984. . . . So you really can't level that criticism against GB2 without also leveling it against the original film. And as you say, it rings true to life that many people will continue to deny something, even when it's right in front of them.
#4972886
ghoulishfright wrote: September 24th, 2022, 7:02 pm Plus, even if it's true that lots of people in GB2 didn't believe in ghosts, in the first film, you have Walter Peck who thinks the Ghostbusters are just a bunch of grifters, and the ghosts are all part of some fancy electronic light show (I'm not even sure he was convinced of the paranormal after getting "slimed" with a truckload of marshmallow goop; he probably thought it was just shaving cream or something ;) ), and surely Peck wasn't the only skeptic in 1984. . . . So you really can't level that criticism against GB2 without also leveling it against the original film. And as you say, it rings true to life that many people will continue to deny something, even when it's right in front of them.
I can think of a very recent global example to this…
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#4972888
RichardLess wrote: September 24th, 2022, 4:56 pm I’ve never understood this criticism. How many characters explicitly say they don’t believe in ghosts? The judge? Hardmeyer? And…Jason’s Dad? I guess you could maybe throw in the doctor at the psychiatric ward.

That’s not a lot. How does 3-4 characters not believing in ghosts turn into “no one believes in ghosts? That doesn’t make sense!”
While it's only four people who either categorically state it, or at least imply it, it could speak for a wider trend with the populace in the city.
RichardLess wrote: September 24th, 2022, 4:56 pmThe movie shows the GB’s still being beloved by the city. So I’ve never got the “hey! Why doesn’t everyone believe in ghosts now?”
The movie doesn't show them as being beloved by the city until the end credits.
Of the times where Peter is recognised while out in public, 30% of that recognition is from The World of the Psychic, not because he was a Ghostbuster (and the times he is recognised for being a Ghostbuster, it's either with sarcastic scorn from Hardemeyer or the hesitance/skepticism from Janosz).
Ray and Winston were certainly hired by Birthday kid's parents because they were Ghostbusters, as did the parents at the other functions they attended... But the scene, along with Winston's remarks seems to suggest a trend they've been encountering: they're not beloved by or of any interest to the kids at the party/ies they've been attending.
#4972892
Kingpin wrote: September 25th, 2022, 5:08 am
RichardLess wrote: September 24th, 2022, 4:56 pm I’ve never understood this criticism. How many characters explicitly say they don’t believe in ghosts? The judge? Hardmeyer? And…Jason’s Dad? I guess you could maybe throw in the doctor at the psychiatric ward.

That’s not a lot. How does 3-4 characters not believing in ghosts turn into “no one believes in ghosts? That doesn’t make sense!”
While it's only four people who either categorically state it, or at least imply it, it could speak for a wider trend with the populace in the city.
RichardLess wrote: September 24th, 2022, 4:56 pmThe movie shows the GB’s still being beloved by the city. So I’ve never got the “hey! Why doesn’t everyone believe in ghosts now?”
The movie doesn't show them as being beloved by the city until the end credits.
Of the times where Peter is recognised while out in public, 30% of that recognition is from The World of the Psychic, not because he was a Ghostbuster (and the times he is recognised for being a Ghostbuster, it's either with sarcastic scorn from Hardemeyer or the hesitance/skepticism from Janosz).
Ray and Winston were certainly hired by Birthday kid's parents because they were Ghostbusters, as did the parents at the other functions they attended... But the scene, along with Winston's remarks seems to suggest a trend they've been encountering: they're not beloved by or of any interest to the kids at the party/ies they've been attending.
I agree I’m sure more than four people in the city feel that way. But the criticism is that people somehow don’t believe in ghosts after the events of the first movie and the movie doesn’t really show that beyond a few examples of personal animus. But like I mentioned, even if we saw a multitude of people not believing…how is that unreasonable given what we know about people? If anything they don’t show enough people NOT believing.

As a clarification when I mentioned the city love I didn’t mean the city as in any official capacity, like The Mayor, I meant them being cheered on by the the citizens when they show up at the museum, after the court bust and when taking lady Liberty for a walk. Or in the court after Venkman’s “Sometimes weird stuff happens..”. Then of course like you mentioned after they walk out of the museum and when they are given the key to the city.
Of course let us not forget Venkman’s personal fanbase and Mr. Bass Masters lol.
#4972893
RichardLess wrote: September 25th, 2022, 8:58 amhow is that unreasonable given what we know about people? If anything they don’t show enough people NOT believing.
-I believe it gets the criticism because it means that rather than jumping straight into the Ghostbusting and lore-building, valuable screen time is effectively wasted forcing the guys to have to build-up to being an operational business (again).
RichardLess wrote: September 25th, 2022, 8:58 amAs a clarification when I mentioned the city love I didn’t mean the city as in any official capacity, like The Mayor, I meant them being cheered on by the the citizens when they show up at the museum, after the court bust and when taking lady Liberty for a walk.
And actually I should amend my previous remark, having forgotten the examples in the court case and outside the museum. To amend, during the guys windswept years and before they were having to stand up to defend themselves, they didn't seem especially beloved by the city or its people.
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#4972899
Kingpin wrote: September 25th, 2022, 11:14 am
RichardLess wrote: September 25th, 2022, 8:58 amhow is that unreasonable given what we know about people? If anything they don’t show enough people NOT believing.
-I believe it gets the criticism because it means that rather than jumping straight into the Ghostbusting and lore-building, valuable screen time is effectively wasted forcing the guys to have to build-up to being an operational business (again).
RichardLess wrote: September 25th, 2022, 8:58 amAs a clarification when I mentioned the city love I didn’t mean the city as in any official capacity, like The Mayor, I meant them being cheered on by the the citizens when they show up at the museum, after the court bust and when taking lady Liberty for a walk.
And actually I should amend my previous remark, having forgotten the examples in the court case and outside the museum. To amend, during the guys windswept years and before they were having to stand up to defend themselves, they didn't seem especially beloved by the city or its people.


You know what’s interesting about that? The starting from scratch? I think that’s a huge positive for the movie. I think most people expected the movie to start off with them being full time ghostbusters and instead we get what would probably actually happen to a group of guys operating nuclear power packs without licenses. Someone somewhere once said the movie would be better if the opening was the court room scene and instead of the mood slime they are in court for what occurred in GB1. But I disagree with that.

And I love seeing them at low points and having to get back to that place. It’s actually shocking how restrained the movie is. There’s less proton pack usage than the first movie. Which means we get lots a great character stuff.

For me the movie is just about perfect right about until they get committed to the psychiatric ward

As for how the people receive them…I think when they are in Ghostbuster mode most people are digging them. It’s like in real life. Bill Murray showing up as Bill Murray gets a good reaction but bill Murray showing up dressed as a GB? People would go nuts for that.
#4972906
RichardLess wrote: September 25th, 2022, 4:19 pminstead we get what would probably actually happen to a group of guys operating nuclear power packs without licenses.
Except they weren't living the repercussions of wearing unlicensed nuclear accelerators, they were living the repercussions of causing a massive explosion that blew the top off of 550 Central Park West. If it'd been the former they likely would've been locked up, or doing some sort of grunt work for the first Bush administration to pay their debt to society.

The issue with the "starting over" aspect of Ghostbusters II is it's like if Spider-Man 2 had decided to devote a large chunk of time to retelling the sequence where Peter got bitten by the spider, and saw Uncle Ben die - it's a waste of screen time for a plot detail we've already seen once. Spider-Man: Homecoming didn't feature either of these iconic moments because they knew the audience would be familiar enough with them that it wasn't necessary to repeat them once again.

Ghostbusters II could've opened with the guys still being in business (and thus being more in-line with The Real Ghostbusters, but maybe business has gotten a little slow (hence the side-hustle as birthday party entertainment), then the volume of calls starts increasing alongside Dana's own experience with the buggy. Maybe it's less triumphant, but I feel it would've felt a bit less repetitive.

And I'm sure there's alternate concepts that would've served for an even stronger opening to the movie than my proposal.

We could even still have the courtroom battle, but it's the Ghostbusters being called in to investigate a haunting at the courthouse, rather than their own trial - which would've given us even more scenes of the "professional paranormal investigations" side of the business along with the "eliminations" side.
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#4972907
Kingpin wrote: September 26th, 2022, 1:57 amGhostbusters II could've opened with the guys still being in business (and thus being more in-line with The Real Ghostbusters, but maybe business has gotten a little slow (hence the side-hustle as birthday party entertainment), then the volume of calls starts increasing alongside Dana's own experience with the buggy. Maybe it's less triumphant, but I feel it would've felt a bit less repetitive.

We could even still have the courtroom battle, but it's the Ghostbusters being called in to investigate a haunting at the courthouse, rather than their own trial - which would've given us even more scenes of the "professional paranormal investigations" side of the business along with the "eliminations" side.
I recall one of Aykroyd and Ramis's early GB2 pitches to Murray was Peter and Dana were married and had a son and that actually might have been what he signed off on (and the source of why Murray was so dissatisfied with the final product for so long). I'm curious if there was ever a draft between The Seed and the 8/88 one where they explored that. But I digress. In any case, I agree. They could have started it the same way with the carriage incident but the change would be Peter and Dana are married. And because it's family, Peter pulls Ray and Egon to do a pro-bono and check out their apartment and it all unfolds the same, they cause a blackout by accident and are arrested, but the trial doesn't involve the restraining order, just the current charges. The courtroom battle was cool and a favorite of mine, but yes, that would have been great if they chased after the Scoleri Brothers after Nunzio flew off with the Prosecutor and they have to search the courthouse for the ghosts.

But I like your idea that they get called to the court room on a case. I think it could have been a funny callback if they mention they've turned down any cases related to government ever since the Mayor's office stiffed them on the bill from 1984 but due to a slump in calls, they have no choice but the take the case at the courthouse. But the catch would be how does the mood slime get to the courthouse in this scenario to allow for the Scoleri Brothers to manifest. Perhaps Judge Wexler is reading a verdict the same way he does in the movie, and his anger draws the slime flow and it starts running down the walls of the courtroom and boom. And instead of certain characters saying they don't believe in ghosts, just the Ghostbusters have been getting less calls because they're aren't in vogue anymore and capturing newspaper headlines. They're kinda like in the Krusty the Clown phase, they're the town heroes but no one raises a fuss about them like they used to when their were at their pinnacle.

But as to the original premise, some people in NYC still not believing in ghosts by 1989. Well, I always figured that since NYC is a big place, and this was the 80s so how much footage of the Ghostbusters in action was really recorded and how far did that really spread in the city, the state, the nation? Or how widely accepted by the scientific community are the Ghostbusters at this point? Did Ray and Egon continue to publish and prove the existence of ghosts with all the data and experiences they accrued as Ghostbusters? I think it's fair to say the explosion of Ghostbusters in the local news in 1984 wasn't enough to convince everyone in New York that ghosts exist. Whatever came out in print and one the news was enough for children at the time like Gary Grooberson to believe. And of course, there were the people outside the building that saw Stay Puft. Those people surely believed. But. It wasn't enough for people who weren't there like Brownstone Boy's dad or Judge Wexler likely due to their own personal beliefs and attitudes. More so I'm sure if Walter Peck got an op-ed published, they read it, and felt his notions they were tricking people seemed more plausible. Plus, I doubt people like the Sedgewick manager, Dana, or Louis bragging to people or going on Oprah for tell-alls that ghosts exists and that sort of belief is still largely toxic for your career to publicly admit to. So I think a combination of people not having personal experiences in 1984 who show up in 1989 along with those who believe not admitting they believe gave off that false sense that by 1989, there was this roll back to absolutely no one believes in ghosts and are "reminded" they exist thanks to the activity Vigo causes.
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#4972908
mrmichaelt wrote: September 26th, 2022, 3:53 amBut the catch would be how does the mood slime get to the courthouse in this scenario to allow for the Scoleri Brothers to manifest. Perhaps Judge Wexler is reading a verdict the same way he does in the movie, and his anger draws the slime flow and it starts running down the walls of the courtroom and boom.
I quite like that, it could even be viewed as a foreshadowing moment of the slime shell covering the museum.

Another possibility is that a janitor is cleaning up the sudden flow of it in one of the courthouse's bathrooms, when the negative vibes from Wexler activate it, bringing the Scoleris to unlife. Could've made for a fun little "I'm outta here!/you ain't paying me enough for this!" moment, and his fleeing apparition is what tips the guys off something's going down in the courtroom.
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#4972910
Kingpin wrote:I quite like that, it could even be viewed as a foreshadowing moment of the slime shell covering the museum.
Exactly!

Kingpin wrote:Another possibility is that a janitor is cleaning up the sudden flow of it in one of the courthouse's bathrooms, when the negative vibes from Wexler activate it, bringing the Scoleris to unlife. Could've made for a fun little "I'm outta here!/you ain't paying me enough for this!" moment, and his fleeing apparition is what tips the guys off something's going down in the courtroom.
Ooh, a little "toilet humor" could have worked. Or how about the Scoleri Brothers not being the only manifestations. Could have had a live action Fearsome Flush.
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#4972923
mrmichaelt wrote: September 26th, 2022, 4:19 am Or how about the Scoleri Brothers not being the only manifestations. Could have had a live action Fearsome Flush.
And the ghost of a defendant berating his still-living lawyer over their loss in court years ago.
#4972925
Kingpin wrote: September 26th, 2022, 1:57 am
RichardLess wrote: September 25th, 2022, 4:19 pminstead we get what would probably actually happen to a group of guys operating nuclear power packs without licenses.
Except they weren't living the repercussions of wearing unlicensed nuclear accelerators, they were living the repercussions of causing a massive explosion that blew the top off of 550 Central Park West. If it'd been the former they likely would've been locked up, or doing some sort of grunt work for the first Bush administration to pay their debt to society.

The issue with the "starting over" aspect of Ghostbusters II is it's like if Spider-Man 2 had decided to devote a large chunk of time to retelling the sequence where Peter got bitten by the spider, and saw Uncle Ben die - it's a waste of screen time for a plot detail we've already seen once. Spider-Man: Homecoming didn't feature either of these iconic moments because they knew the audience would be familiar enough with them that it wasn't necessary to repeat them once again.

Ghostbusters II could've opened with the guys still being in business (and thus being more in-line with The Real Ghostbusters, but maybe business has gotten a little slow (hence the side-hustle as birthday party entertainment), then the volume of calls starts increasing alongside Dana's own experience with the buggy. Maybe it's less triumphant, but I feel it would've felt a bit less repetitive.

And I'm sure there's alternate concepts that would've served for an even stronger opening to the movie than my proposal.

We could even still have the courtroom battle, but it's the Ghostbusters being called in to investigate a haunting at the courthouse, rather than their own trial - which would've given us even more scenes of the "professional paranormal investigations" side of the business along with the "eliminations" side.
When you think about it they are still acting as Ghostbusters from the moment they take Dana’s case. That happens early on in the film. They are investigating her paranormal event. That’s part of Ghostbusting. Are they wearing the packs and suits?(besides the birthday party) no.

Your Spider-Man 2 comparison is interesting. I don’t think the comparison quite works since, again, it’s not like they aren’t still acting as GB’s early in the film. They just aren’t officially calling themselves that. We don’t see them doing the “going into business” thing again. It’s literally Scoleri Bros-We are back! Interestingly enough Spiderman 2 does have Spider-Man give up being Spider-Man, lose his powers and rediscover how to use them and become Spider-Man again. So there is a similarity. It just doesn’t happen at the start of the movie.

It’s true It’s probably not the best storytelling idea to start from zero. But the movie gets away with it. It works. The start of the movie, in fact the everything up until the first montage? It’s great stuff. It’s funny, it’s interesting. It works. It’s as strong as anything in the first movie.

If we had them being Gb’s from the get go the movie we wouldn’t get World of the Psychic, Ray’s Occult or Egon’s torturing poor married couples. Those are fun moments.

And I guess it goes back to that age old question we seem to come to back to on here. What do you want out of a Ghostbusters movie? Are you in it for the action, the Ghostbusting, the spectacle stuff? Or the characters & comedy? Both? If you want them wearing the suits & packs more often I can see how the movie is problematic.
I could’ve watched a whole movie of Egon & Ray just chilln in his occult store.


There’s a million and 1 ways they could’ve done a sequel. The one issue I have with the way these movies seem to work is the fact that paranormal events are tied to the major big bad & once the big bad is defeated to paranormal activity seems to go away. There’s parts of that idea I like and see the value in and parts that are an issue.
Maybe there’s a better version of this movie. I wouldn’t change much tho with the first two acts. I’d definitely strengthen the climax with Vigo. I wouldn’t get rid to of the Statue of Liberty walking tho. I just love that idea and visual. I get the criticism that it’s a Stay Puft 2.0 thing but they set it up well enough and Stay Puft was a huge punch line sight gag. Liberty walking is used in a more “Are they really doing this?” way. I don’t know. That’s a hard one. I see the problem people have and I get it and even kind of agree to an extent, but still I’d keep it. It works for me.


And yeah you’re right about the nuclear power packs. They’d definitely be jail.
#4972933
jonogunn wrote: September 26th, 2022, 6:46 am The unfortunate thing is that firehouse has no choice but to be yet ANOTHER starting-up business AGAIN.

I only hope Jason has the foresight to not pull the same threads
Well, maybe not. There could be a bit of a time skip and the business is already up and running and a team is out on calls. i.e. 1 Year Later.
RichardLess wrote: September 26th, 2022, 12:51 pm If we had them being Gb’s from the get go the movie we wouldn’t get World of the Psychic, Ray’s Occult or Egon’s torturing poor married couples. Those are fun moments.
True, but it could have been like the RGB episodes with them moonlighting like "Ghost Busted" when they had a brief drought in paranormal activity.
RichardLess wrote: September 26th, 2022, 12:51 pm The one issue I have with the way these movies seem to work is the fact that paranormal events are tied to the major big bad & once the big bad is defeated to paranormal activity seems to go away. There’s parts of that idea I like and see the value in and parts that are an issue.
Slimer does seem to have been an outlier as the manager alludes to how all the old staff knows the 12th floor is haunted but he notes it wasn't this bad until 2 weeks ago. So it seems like he was more of a nuisance haunting before Gozer's pending arrival in 1984.
#4972935
mrmichaelt wrote: September 26th, 2022, 6:18 pm
jonogunn wrote: September 26th, 2022, 6:46 am The unfortunate thing is that firehouse has no choice but to be yet ANOTHER starting-up business AGAIN.

I only hope Jason has the foresight to not pull the same threads
Well, maybe not. There could be a bit of a time skip and the business is already up and running and a team is out on calls. i.e. 1 Year Later.
RichardLess wrote: September 26th, 2022, 12:51 pm If we had them being Gb’s from the get go the movie we wouldn’t get World of the Psychic, Ray’s Occult or Egon’s torturing poor married couples. Those are fun moments.
True, but it could have been like the RGB episodes with them moonlighting like "Ghost Busted" when they had a brief drought in paranormal activity.
RichardLess wrote: September 26th, 2022, 12:51 pm The one issue I have with the way these movies seem to work is the fact that paranormal events are tied to the major big bad & once the big bad is defeated to paranormal activity seems to go away. There’s parts of that idea I like and see the value in and parts that are an issue.
Slimer does seem to have been an outlier as the manager alludes to how all the old staff knows the 12th floor is haunted but he notes it wasn't this bad until 2 weeks ago. So it seems like he was more of a nuisance haunting before Gozer's pending arrival in 1984.
I guess you could consider this a dry spell, right? A 5 year really long dry spell lol.


One of my favourite concepts in the original film is the idea that the building is acting as a “huge super conductive antennae” for “pulling and concentrating spiritual turbulence”. I’ve always loved the exposition in these movies. That’s a great line: “spiritual turbulence”.

I know others don’t agree with me on this but I’ve always thought that New York has some sort of special relationship with the paranormal which is why Shandor built his building there and why Vigo chose New York. I’ve never particularly been fond of the idea of having multiple GB franchises in different cities. It makes the GB’s less special.
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