[Paranormal]

Merry Christmas Everyone! While browsing therpf the other day I came across a for sale thread for a pack shell that claims to have production ties? A 3rd generation casting I believe? Correct me if I'm wrong. Anyone know anything about these?

[jackdoud]

I assume you're talking about this thread?
http://www.therpf.com/f13/proton-pack-s ... ng-118845/

From what I've heard it's not a direct casts of any production pack but was originally built by a group with access to one for measurement purposes. Most I can say is there are reasons why certain things aren't offered on this forum which are generally very good reasons and means it's a good idea to stay away from them.

[Paranormal]

Yep, that's the one. I was wondering why this was not on this forum. Thanks

[Kingpin]

I'd recommend avoiding Bowelrock's (because like Videobob's, the history of the piece is so completely murky), and more importantly (which is the likely reason why it's not on this forum) it's still a recasted part.

[mburkit]

That and Bowelrock was banned from GBfans about 1-2 years ago. That's why it is not on this forum.

[Vincenzo330]

The shell comes from a discarded stunt mold. Unfortunately before being discarded the mold was cut into 4 pieces and was was not reassembled perfectly. The cyclotron has an egg shape to it and the center valley is missing at least 1/8" of material so accurate parts (beam line/filler tube) will no longer fit on that shell.

If you wanted to use it you'd basically have to cut it into 4 pieces and reassemble in order to get the correct shape back. It's a nice piece due to it's lineage but I wouldn't try building a pack from it without heavy modification.

[Phish4dinner]

Looks like they fit fine to me..

[slimesquare2]

BR's shell is close like VIN says but i'm pretty sure even bowelrock says that some things match up and some don't

[Phish4dinner]

Does that even matter?? Its more accurate then anything else out there, it has the correct ties, and its the same price as other shells out there.. You can't go wrong. Accuracy will always win over practicality.. The pics speak for themselves. Peace..

[gdonovan]

Does that even matter?? Its more accurate then anything else out there, it has the correct ties, and its the same price as other shells out there.. You can't go wrong. Accuracy will always win over practicality.. The pics speak for themselves. Peace..

To be honest I looked at the pictures on the board and was not impressed a lick.

Seriously? I'd much rather have a cleanly made pack with sharp lines than one that has dubious at best heritage if I was going to spend the cash.

[Vincenzo330]

Looks like they fit fine to me..

The beam line/filler tube are undersized on that build in order to fit. It might look fine to Phish4dinner but he's not exactly an authority on accuracy by any means.

He is, however, an expert at injecting himself into threads, EXPLODING WITH DRAMA and then backpedaling. Stick around everyone, I'm pretty sure this will be one of those threads.

[mburkit]

I've seen at least 2 of these that were cast by Ross and both were warped pretty bad at the cyclotron and where the clippard valve is attached above the cyclotron as well as the gel coat was peeling off in spots. Still boggles my mind why VideoBob would recast something like that.

As far as I'm concerned, the only thing on that shell that's a cast of anything production used is the N-Filter, which was most likely pulled off the Sony Hero pack (which is where the measurements were taken from for this shell) and slapped on for the molding. There's just too many other little details that do not line up to make me think this was used for anything in either film.

[KagaSakai]

To be honest I looked at the pictures on the board and was not impressed a lick.
Seriously? I'd much rather have a cleanly made pack with sharp lines than one that has dubious at best heritage if I was going to spend the cash.

I'm not denying that there are some poorly made shells out there, but the screen used packs weren't exactly pristine or razor-edged either.

[AJ Quick]

Here is information about the packs, and the molds on Proptopia: http://www.proptopia.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5517

A quote for those who can't view the topic:

I'm not saying that Joe worked on the USF packs, he had a cast from that run and Joe's run had the washers shaved off. This looks like one that BB did. Bear Burge (sp?) did them for USF.

The stunt pack mold casts were kind of damaged, the mold was cut from corner to corner, to keep people from making casts, before it was thrown out. When the mold was found they put the four pieces back together and made a few slush casts. Every casting has evidence of the cuts made to the mold. I have some pictures around here of a first generation cast from that mold.

As we described in the Videobob thread... the mold is probably a 4th or 5th generation that bowelrock is selling. It basically goes: GB1 Pack > Casted for USF / GB2 > USF Modified > Mold Modified Back to GB > Bowelrock > Videobob

There are some details that line up very nicely.. but the shell had to be extensively modified to get it back to where it is. I know also that Bowelrock is trying to commission someone to take a casting and fix the mistakes so he can sell castings of that. Videobob's shell is basically a twisted mess compared to the Bowelrock castings. (I thought Phish4dinner bought one so he could show that they weren't very nice.. and that he was gonna throw it away... but I guess not?)

And as was mentioned... Bowelrock = Ross Arbuckle. He was banned 2-3 years ago.

[gdonovan]

To be honest I looked at the pictures on the board and was not impressed a lick.
Seriously? I'd much rather have a cleanly made pack with sharp lines than one that has dubious at best heritage if I was going to spend the cash.

I'm not denying that there are some poorly made shells out there, but the screen used packs weren't exactly pristine or razor-edged either.

I didn't say they were, I just stated my preference for a "cleanly made pack with sharp lines"

[mburkit]

I'd actually like to see people do some comparison shots with the shell Ross is selling and every type of pack seen both in the films and on display (which would include the USF packs), just to show that his shell was not used anywhere in production of anything officially Ghostbusters related.

This would include GB1 heros and stunt foam packs, GB2 Heros, semi-heros, and stunt packs, as well as the USF packs. Just be nice to have some definitive comparisons to put this topic to rest.

If no one does this by tomorrow, I'll try to tackle some of it myself to share on here.

That way, instead of this boiling down into a flame war, this discussion could, you know, be productive?

[KagaSakai]

Good call, Matt. Do we know of any stunt pack pictures that aren't already in the reference section?

[ProtonCharger]

im not alone when, i dont think anyone with a videobob shell has reason to enter this discussion.

[Vincenzo330]

im not alone when, i dont think anyone with a videobob shell has reason to enter this discussion.

It doesn't matter who has bought what shell or from whom, but Videobob shells are just poor casts of Bowelrock's shells so there's no reason to enter them into the arena for comparison.

[KagaSakai]

im not alone when, i dont think anyone with a videobob shell has reason to enter this discussion.

Adam, you are on of the many who are against these shells, so wouldn't you want as many people as possible to join the discussion so as to educate them, regardless if they have the shell or not?

[mburkit]

Good call, Matt. Do we know of any stunt pack pictures that aren't already in the reference section?

The only public photos of the GB1 stunt packs that I know of would be screen caps from the film itself. In the reference section, we have photos of basically all the other packs that I listed, most of which that were displayed at different Planet Hollywoods as well as the photos that Vince took at Sony.

I will try to take some HD screen caps tomorrow on my day off of the GB1 stunts to add to this discussion. But I can say right now, EVERYTHING, except the bumper were molded onto that shell. This would include: the ion arm, booster tube + frame, injector tubes, filler tube and beamline, HGA, PPD, and the N-filter. The GB1's also had additional material around all the tubing for support as well as to make a cleaner pull with less undercuts on all these things. If someone was to take a cast from a GB1 stunt mold and try to clean it up to where Ross's shell currently is, it would be far less work to just use the cast as a source of measurements and build a new master then to clean up the cast and try to recast it. Just my 2 cents. And if someone DID try to clean up a GB1 stunt cast, there would be a lot more artifacts of that clean up on the shell then there are on Ross's shells.

Anyway, hopefully we can start a real discussion with photos and what not and do what we nerds do best: critique!

[ProtonCharger]

Adam, you are on of the many who are against these shells, so wouldn't you want as many people as possible to join the discussion so as to educate them, regardless if they have the shell or not?

nope. couple of reasons.

the most obvious being any talk about a video bob shell, will make people that dont know any better look for one to buy (they do exist). some people just dont care what it is or who it comes from(they also exist). i know there's nothing literally stopping him from continuing to sell them on ebay, but at the same time, i dont want any encouragement for people to buy from him either. we have a thread going into detail about bob, his shell, and where it comes from, yet we are still getting new people joining up with that shell and active members that were buying it as that discussion was going on.

what good would that bring; especially when it was just presented in this thread and flaunted in a garishly positive way? which brings me to reason 2:

is it's a recasted generation shell with many problems. if you want to talk about the bowel rock shell, and it's relation to a production shell, then that's what this is about. video bob's is a recast of a bowel rock shell. this has been clearly defined in the video bob thread. you cannot compare a recasted item, good or not, to the real or previously casted thing, which brings me back to part of reason 1.

some people just dont care what it is, or who it comes from. the people that do care what goes on to their backs are fewer in numbers.

and let me repeat, bowelrock/ross arbuckle is banned from this community, from what i understand he's approached people privately to sell his shell. it is frowned on within this community to pm someone with something for sale if you dont meet supporting membership requirements which are put in place to protect or at least help the people make better choices for who they do their prop business with. i know what ever outside of the community isnt it's business, and i know i speak for myself that if i buy something for my proton pack, it's from a seller that is involved with this community with good standing, but i want to do every thing i can to encourage people to spend within.

bottom line, it's for the best people that own a video bob shell not join in, because with every negative comment about any other seller's wares, is always met with someone chiming in with praise. this is proven time and time again.

[Venky]

Little known fact...Unaware of Ross' reputation and banishment from this community at the time, I had approached him on the phone to NOT mold this shell with the suspicions it holds to being heavily related to a major investment I and two other individuals partook in three years ago regarding proton pack kits, found parts etc.. When I discovered his reputation and that he insisted on molding and selling only 4 to personal friends at the time (sure....) He would eventually use any public venue to try to sell those shells to ie. Facebook, message boards etc and the rest is history. Since then he had tried to push at me to get other valuables from my investment, which I would refuse to the point he ceased all contact from then on.

[mburkit]

So, let me begin what I promised. I shall start with the first film, Ghost Busters. These comparisons will focus mostly on the pack and its construction, since we are going to discuss the lineage of Ross's shell here. There are 2 variations of proton packs used in the film. The Hero and the stunt.

The GB1 Heros



The GB1 Hero proton packs were fiberglass shells mounted on aluminum motherboards with LC-1 ALICE Frames and straps. These packs had many aluminum parts on them, including: aluminum Ion Arm and cap, booster tube, injector tubes, HGA, vacuum line, PPD, Beamline and filler tube, as well as the N-Filter. The wands for these packs were also fully aluminum, minus the resin grips. All these external parts were pop riveted to the shell, which was then, in turn, mounted to the motherboard via L-Brackets and bolts at the 4 corners of the pack.


Here is a close up of an aluminum Hero wand.



The GB1 Stunts

The GB1 Stunt packs were packs that were cast in foam to be worn during physical stunts performed in the film. Many of the attached pieces of the hero packs are cast on to these packs in foam. These packs also featured static lights and were attached to plywood motherboards with different straps compared to the GB1 heros. Other then the bumper, wand and hosing/ribbon cable, everything was cast into the foam shell of the pack.





In this photo, I have several parts of the pack circled and numbered. Number 1 is a toggle switch for the lights on the pack. Numbers 2-8 are all parts that on the hero were metal and mechanically attached to the fiberglass shell in some way. On the stunts, they are all cast in, and many have been filled in around them with material to remove undercuts from the mold. The most obvious ones you can see in this photo are for number 4, where both the filler tube and beam line have material attaching them to the EDA. Another way you will notice the stunt packs is that the Ion Arm (number 5 here) is also molded on backwards in relation to the hero packs.


In this image, you can see the the extra material underneath the injector tubes here.

In this image, you can see the extra material under the HGA to eliminate the undercut under the molded on HGA.

That's it for the 2 different packs from Ghost Busters.

Next we'll move onto Ghostbusters 2: Electric Boogaloo.

[gdonovan]

In this image, you can see the extra material under the HGA to eliminate the undercut under the molded on HGA.

Bill backing into the wall and squashing the pack cracks me up every time, a dead giveaway it is a stunt pack.

[AJ Quick]

Matt I also recommend updating the Wiki with these info / pictures.

[mburkit]

Next I'll highlight the different packs used in Ghostbusters 2. There are 3 grades of proton packs used in GB2: The heros, semi-heros, and stunt packs.

The GB2 Heros

The Hero packs in GB2 where the same hero packs from GB1 but retrofitted so they had matching parts with the new packs they had to construct for filming. All intents and purposes, these parks are built the same way, only with some cosmetic differences, such as different ribbon cables, different colored crank knob, the use of nycoil banjos on the wands, etc. Other then that, they are just beat up versions of their former selves from the first film.




The GB2 Semi-Heros


The Semi-Hero packs were a new addition to the packs used in filming. These packs were stripped down versions of the heros, merging constructional concepts from both the heros and the stunt packs into a mid grade pack for wide shots. These packs were also constructed lighter for the actors. many of the metal parts from the Hero packs were cast in resin and attached to the shell, such as the HGA, injector tubes, beamline and filler tube. Other metal parts, such as the Ion Arm, Booster Tube (and frame), PPD, and N-Filter, were actually cast into the shell, much like the foam stunt packs from the first film. These packs also had fiberglass cast wands, instead of the metal ones from the first film.


For more images of the semi-hero packs, please see this thread: Click Here

The GB2 Stunts

The GB2 foam stunt packs seem to have been built some what better then the GB1 foam stunt packs. The foam packs seem to be constructed the same way as the semi-heros but instead of being cast as fiberglass, they were cast in foam instead. Once again, the Ion Arm, Booster Tube (and frame), PPD and N-Filter were cast onto the shell and part of the mold.





That's the major differences of packs seen in Ghostbusters 2.

. . . .







But wait, THERE'S MORE!

The USF Packs

Besides the video game, there is one more instance of Columbia/Sony having packs produced for production. That would be the packs made for the Universal Studios Florida stage show.



These lovelies were constructed to be used at the USF stage show. As to how much lineage these packs actually have is still up in the air. If the master for these mold was retooled from a production mold, it was heavily modified. There's alot of extra material added around the EDA, both where the beamline and filler tubes go, as well as between the injector tubes and the EDA. At least the bottom half of the Booster tube and frame are cast into the shell as well as the N-Filter. There also seems to be alot of warpage at this point.

These packs were also mounted on what seems like MDF motherboards and LC-2 ALICE Frames.



Definitely an interesting end to the production of packs for the public eye.

That's pretty much it.

[Paranormal]

That information you just providing was excellent, you have answered many of the questions I wondered and I'm sure some others as well. Thank you for taking the time to post that information. It's awesome to know the lineage like that.

[mburkit]

Now as to why I posted all this stuff: to compare it to Ross's shell. Ross's shell is particularly interesting. If you have been following, you would notice that the GB1 Heros did NOT have the N-Filter cast onto the shell, but every other incarceration of the shells used in both films as well as the USF show do.



BUT, all these other shells used in production had at least the booster tube or part of the booster tube cast into the shell as well. Then the GB1 stunts had tons of extra material added around the molded in tubing, as does the USF shell. If Ross's shell was a 2nd Generation cast from a GB1 original production mold, there would be several differences then what are currently on the shells he offers.

First, the N-Filter would not be on there. Plan and simple. And if it was cast from a "stunt mold" it would also have everything else on it, such as the booster tube + frame, injector tubes, beam line, filler tube, PPD, HGA, and Ion Arm. It doesn't and considering all the small imperfections on the shell already, then there would be even more from the clean up of removing those things from the master to get the shell where it is now.

Second, the EDA discs do not have the "nipples" on them.



The discs are there, but the "nipples" are not. As you can see from this GB1 Retrofitted Hero used in GB2, they can easily be seen.


There's also a bulge on the sync generator that is not on any other production shell ever seen.


Lastly, there's a ton of the imperfections that are on the hero packs in GB1 that are non-existent on Ross's shell. The ribs have no wood grain on them, for one.

GB1 Retrofit Hero in Sony's Lobby:


Ross's shell




There's also penny nail's that they didn't do a great job filling in on the master that shows up on both the hero and semi-hero packs. Here you can see it on the bottom powercell rib of this semi-hero shell:


It can even be seen on the OMNI pack:



Non-existent on Ross's shell:



Production shell? As far as I'm concerned, no. Does it have some connection to the hero packs? Well, yes. As Videobob and Ross have both pointed out, the N-Filter on this shell is the same exact one that is on the Hero on display at Sony's Lobby.

Here's the story I was informed of about this shell. Everyone sit down and get cozy, its story time.

From what I understand, at some point after GB2, the hero pack that was on display at NYC Planet Hollywood and later in Sony's Lobby was removed from display and taken apart. During this time, someone took measurements from the shell, and reconstructed a new master from the measurements taken directly from the shell. During the molding process, they decided they'd pull the N-Filter off the Sony Hero and placed it on this new master for the casting, instead of making a new one. After it was molded, the N-Filter was reattached to the Sony Hero as it was reassembled and returned to display.

How true is that story? You got me. There tends to be a lot of "whisper down the alley" in the prop builders communities. But does it make sense? It would explain this shell and why it has some things, but not others and does not fit into the obvious lineage of molds made for the movies and USF. It would also fit into other stories I have heard over the years with the handling of the Sony Hero Pack, which I am not sure if I am allowed to discuss publicly.

Anyway, that's how I came to my conclusion about Ross's shell. Production piece? Probably not. Some ties to the screen used props in some small way? Yes. The N-Filter is proof of that.

[nick-a-tron]

Great info Matt! Thanks for going to trouble of sharing it all with us.