Discuss all things Ghostbusters here, unless they would be better suited in one of the few forums below.
#4938040
This has probably been discussed before, but with the new movie coming out I felt it deserved to be mentioned again.

I feel that it's worthwhile to discuss the difference between the GB1 and GB2 streams on the neutrona wand. Positron collider.

Although GB2 was a newer movie and more special effects based, the streams were actually less refined and quality than the GB1 streams in my opinion.

The GB2 streams were just generic. Thin with an orange base. They had the distortion field in cgi when they trapped a ghost, where the ghost would be squeezed etc. but the overall stream effect was more basic than GB1.

The main awesomeness of the Ghostbusters proton stream:

In GB1 the blue sparks shot foreward and the orange beam actually shot inward in tenths of a second when fired. AND the orange stream had a black core or base to the stream, that was not there in GB2.

Black lines in the core of the orange stream in GB1 that were not there in GB2.

That's what made the beam so interesting.

This is probably superfluous but I wanted it to be mentioned with the new movie coming out.
#4938120
One time wrote: August 9th, 2020, 10:15 pm This has probably been discussed before, but with the new movie coming out I felt it deserved to be mentioned again.

I feel that it's worthwhile to discuss the difference between the GB1 and GB2 streams on the neutrona wand. Positron collider.

Although GB2 was a newer movie and more special effects based, the streams were actually less refined and quality than the GB1 streams in my opinion.

The GB2 streams were just generic. Thin with an orange base. They had the distortion field in cgi when they trapped a ghost, where the ghost would be squeezed etc. but the overall stream effect was more basic than GB1.

The main awesomeness of the Ghostbusters proton stream:

In GB1 the blue sparks shot foreward and the orange beam actually shot inward in tenths of a second when fired. AND the orange stream had a black core or base to the stream, that was not there in GB2.

Black lines in the core of the orange stream in GB1 that were not there in GB2.

That's what made the beam so interesting.

This is probably superfluous but I wanted it to be mentioned with the new movie coming out.
Two things before I get into this, I believe there are topics on the forum already about this, and 2, no CGI was used in GB2. That being said...

I disagree. While GB1 has my favourite proton stream moments(shooting at Mr. Stay Puft, “Aim for the flat top“, and finally crossing the streams) GB 2 is much more consistent. All the proton streams in GB2 look great. Some of GB1 ones are a bit messy and inconsistent.

Look at GB1 when they trap slimer. It doesn’t look near as good as the “lasso” effect the beams have in GB2. I love that lasso effect. When the GB’s trap Slimer they just stand there has the beams form a shell around the ghost. In GB2 they wrap around the ghosts and pull him like a fishing line.
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#4938129
The rushed timeline of the first film had a bit to do with the inconsistencies in the streams. The Boss crew basically had to figure it out as they went along. Although GB2 had an equally tight post schedule, ILM had a lot of time in pre-production to really get the look of the streams down, plus add a few new elements to recipe.

Richard is correct, there weren't any CGI in GB2. What you're seeing in the trapping shots is a really cool camera trick that Dennis Muren came up with just prior to GB2. Essentially shooting a reflection of the effect on mylar, while the mylar is being moved around around, giving a funky warped look to the FX elements. The same thing was used for Vigo's scrunched up face at the end, plus a few Scoleri shots.
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#4938134
RichardLess wrote: August 12th, 2020, 5:02 am no CGI was used in GB2.
Almost entirely true, especially with the proton streams and whatnot being rotoscoped and optically composited. That being said, if I can be 'that guy' for a second, I always believed that this shot at 1:06



- of the Statue of Liberty's head was a CG render. I don't have a source on it but it certainly looks like one and it's in line with the CG work that ILM was doing at the time.

And regarding the VFX differences between the 2 movies, like everyone else pointed out, Boss Films were super rushed and also suffered from being a startup on their first show. ILM introduced a ton of consistency. GB1 has some really nice shots but the effects in GB2 outshine it as a whole.

edit: seems I'm mistaken about the CG statue of liberty!
Last edited by Couture on August 13th, 2020, 6:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
#4938136
Couture wrote: August 12th, 2020, 5:55 pm
RichardLess wrote: August 12th, 2020, 5:02 am no CGI was used in GB2.
Almost entirely true, especially with the proton streams and whatnot being rotoscoped and optically composited. That being said, if I can be 'that guy' for a second, I always believed that this shot at 1:06 of the statue of liberty's head was a CG render. I don't have a source on it but it certainly looks like one and it's in line with the CG work that ILM was doing at the time.

And regarding the VFX differences between the 2 movies, like everyone else pointed out, Boss Films were super rushed and also suffered from being a startup on their first show. ILM introduced a ton of consistency. GB1 has some really nice shots but the effects in GB2 outshine it as a whole.
That’s funny. I use to think that shot was CGI too. But nope. There is no CGI at all in Ghostbusters 2. Zero, nada, none. ILM wouldn’t be able to do CGI faces or texture until The Abyss a little later in 1989 and Ghostbusters 2 schedule was so insane there’s no way they would have the time. They could barely finish the work they had.
You can learn about how the effects were done in GB 2 by reading the Cinefx article about them. CGI was such a breakthrough at that time, we’d be aware if CGI was used and it wasn’t. There wasn’t even any digital compositing, which Indiana Jones and the last crusade featured during the “death of Donovon” just a few months prior.

ILM CGI breakthrough goes like:
1982 Star Trek Wrath of Khan(the Genesis demo effect)
1986: Young Sherlock Holmes(stained glass knight)
1989:The Abyss(pseudo pod effect)
1991:Terminator 2(T1000)
1993: Jurassic Park(obvious) and then CGI took off like a rocket from there.
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#4938140
Ah interesting, I was always convinced that was the sole CG composite in the film. I thought I also remembered reading it somewhere or hearing it on a podcast, but that’s probably a false memory. I think it would have been a feasible CG shot for ILM at the time being a static object, but yeah that schedule was rushed on GB2. One nice perk from when I worked there was that you could reach out to company email aliases asking about stuff like this, and there were enough long time employees still there that you’d almost always get interesting stories back. Learned some wonderful things, but ghostbusters never really came up apart from learning about Harold Weed playing possessed Ray.
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#4938145
Couture wrote: August 12th, 2020, 9:00 pm I thought I also remembered reading it somewhere or hearing it on a podcast, but that’s probably a false memory.
I've seen several mentions of GB2 having CGI shots, even from people heavily involved in the movie. Maybe even Reitman?

According to Michael Gross, Reitman's first project with a CGI was the cinematic classic Beethoven's 2nd.
Couture wrote: August 12th, 2020, 9:00 pm One nice perk from when I worked there was that you could reach out to company email aliases asking about stuff like this...
I would never get any work done! Any selfies with Vigo?
#4938147
Couture wrote: August 12th, 2020, 5:55 pm- of the Statue of Liberty's head was a CG render. I don't have a source on it but it certainly looks like one and it's in line with the CG work that ILM was doing at the time.
I can see why you feel it's a CG render, but I feel confident in saying that's a composite of two practical shots: Footage of the guys in the gimbal-assisted Statue of Liberty crown set, and footage of the scale model of Liberty's head/shoulders/torch arm:

Image

There is one scene though that I can't shake the CGI feeling from, and it's this:

Image
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#4938149
Couture wrote: August 12th, 2020, 9:00 pm Ah interesting, I was always convinced that was the sole CG composite in the film. I thought I also remembered reading it somewhere or hearing it on a podcast, but that’s probably a false memory. I think it would have been a feasible CG shot for ILM at the time being a static object, but yeah that schedule was rushed on GB2. One nice perk from when I worked there was that you could reach out to company email aliases asking about stuff like this, and there were enough long time employees still there that you’d almost always get interesting stories back. Learned some wonderful things, but ghostbusters never really came up apart from learning about Harold Weed playing possessed Ray.
I mean...it really does look like a CGI shot. It’s true. If I didn’t know otherwise I’d just assume it was(like I use to). Just marvel at it...from the smoothness of the pull out to the texture of lady liberty herself. It’s an amazing shot considering it’s just optical. It’s a shame Mr. Lawrence is no longer with us(Rest in Peace) he might've been able to enlighten us as to why this shot stands out. I think FX guy & make up guru William Forsche worked on this portion of the movie but he doesn’t come round these parts. Maybe if we close our eyes and say his name 3 times he’ll

....Hold on a second... You worked at ILM? Details please sir! copious Details! How long did you work there? What did you do? What movies did you work on?
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#4938166
RichardLess wrote: August 13th, 2020, 2:50 am I think FX guy & make up guru William Forsche worked on this portion of the movie but he doesn’t come round these parts.
William Forsche sculpted Lady Liberty, along with documented the entire ILM GB2 production on video. Dude seriously has like 50 VHS tapes of GB2 material. It's insane.

Mark Vargo, Tom Rosseter, or Ned Gorman would be better brain-picking for that particular shot. Vargo was one of the few FX guys that worked on both GB films.
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#4938169
Thanks for all the excellent info everyone! I stand very much corrected. Seems I have some reading up to do, I need to get a hold of the cinefex article.
d_osborn wrote: August 12th, 2020, 11:10 pm I would never get any work done! Any selfies with Vigo?
Here's my daughter with him. I found him a child so that he might live again!
Image
RichardLess wrote: August 13th, 2020, 2:50 am ....Hold on a second... You worked at ILM? Details please sir! copious Details! How long did you work there? What did you do? What movies did you work on?
I worked at the Vancouver branch as a CG artist (specialized in lighting & rendering) for a few years but left last November. I got to work on all the types of titles you'd probably associate with ILM (star wars, marvel, a transformers, etc). It's a super interesting company, especially if you're into modern film history. It was definitely surreal getting to work alongside people who I watched in behind the scenes featurettes when I was a kid.
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#4938175
Couture wrote: August 13th, 2020, 1:25 pm Thanks for all the excellent info everyone! I stand very much corrected. Seems I have some reading up to do, I need to get a hold of the cinefex article.
d_osborn wrote: August 12th, 2020, 11:10 pm I would never get any work done! Any selfies with Vigo?
Here's my daughter with him. I found him a child so that he might live again!
Image
RichardLess wrote: August 13th, 2020, 2:50 am ....Hold on a second... You worked at ILM? Details please sir! copious Details! How long did you work there? What did you do? What movies did you work on?
I worked at the Vancouver branch as a CG artist (specialized in lighting & rendering) for a few years but left last November. I got to work on all the types of titles you'd probably associate with ILM (star wars, marvel, a transformers, etc). It's a super interesting company, especially if you're into modern film history. It was definitely surreal getting to work alongside people who I watched in behind the scenes featurettes when I was a kid.
Spook Central has a PDF of that issue. Issue number 40 I believe. I’ll copy and paste the link. If you feel like supporting them with your wallet you can also purchase back issues thru their iPhone/iPad app.

Here’s the PDF link. It’s a terrific read.

https://www.theraffon.net/~spookcentral ... efex40.pdf
#4938176
Couture wrote: August 13th, 2020, 1:25 pm Here's my daughter with him. I found him a child so that he might live again!
Hahaha, LOVE IT! I'm dying to get out to the west coast post-COVID. I'll definitely be making my way to the Presidio to pay my respects to our Carpathian overlord.

"Industrial Light & Magic: Into the Digital Realm" is another good resource for GB2 FX. It's way out of print, but copies are pretty inexpensive on eBay.
#4938180
RichardLess wrote: August 13th, 2020, 3:07 pm Spook Central has a PDF of that issue. Issue number 40 I believe. I’ll copy and paste the link. If you feel like supporting them with your wallet you can also purchase back issues thru their iPhone/iPad app.

Here’s the PDF link. It’s a terrific read.

https://www.theraffon.net/~spookcentral ... efex40.pdf
Excellent thanks! Will definitely be reading this.
d_osborn wrote: August 13th, 2020, 3:55 pm Hahaha, LOVE IT! I'm dying to get out to the west coast post-COVID. I'll definitely be making my way to the Presidio to pay my respects to our Carpathian overlord.

"Industrial Light & Magic: Into the Digital Realm" is another good resource for GB2 FX. It's way out of print, but copies are pretty inexpensive on eBay.
Right on, I actually own that book but have never got around to reading it. I’ll have to skip forward and check out the GB2 chapter though. I also definitely recommend a presidio visit next time you’re in SF. A warning though - you’ll have to find an employee to arrange a private tour if you want to see the GB2 stuff (and almost all of the other cool artifacts) since it’s beyond the employee-only gates. Can be tricky if you don’t know someone on the inside. Otherwise you can still check out the grounds, front lobby, and premier theater. Those are all cool as well, but the experience is on another level if you can get a tour. Same goes for Skywalker Ranch... another great place to visit but you’ll need an employee to host you and drive out to it on a work day. Do it if you can though.
#4938183
Couture wrote: August 13th, 2020, 5:15 pm A warning though - you’ll have to find an employee to arrange a private tour if you want to see the GB2 stuff (and almost all of the other cool artifacts) since it’s beyond the employee-only gates. Can be tricky if you don’t know someone on the inside.
Thanks for the heads up, but I'm good there! :love: Damn COVID!

I LOVE that LIBERTY RAGING concept painting.
#4938184
RichardLess wrote: August 13th, 2020, 3:07 pm Spook Central has a PDF of that issue. Issue number 40 I believe. I’ll copy and paste the link. If you feel like supporting them with your wallet you can also purchase back issues thru their iPhone/iPad app.

Here’s the PDF link. It’s a terrific read.

https://www.theraffon.net/~spookcentral ... efex40.pdf

Edit: Opps. Please delete this. Made a mistake & meant to reply to the specific post

Paul recently revised the site so you can't hotlink directly to the PDFs anymore. Truth be told, it's probably my fault because of how often I link people to them in discussions on social media.

But you can still link people to the main page.

https://www.theraffon.net/~spookcentral/gb2_book.htm

Scroll down to the bottom of the page. The Cinefex article is second from the left in the bottom row.

Alex
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#4938227
Alex Newborn wrote: August 13th, 2020, 8:11 pmhttps://www.theraffon.net/~spookcentral/gb2_book.htm
Just looking at the end of the GB2 coloring book and saw this. I wonder if this is where the urban legend of Slimer flying out of the Statue of Liberty in the theatrical cut of the film originated...

Image
#4938231
Yeah, but as far as it becoming an urban legend, I wonder if that was mainly from people seeing that coloring book page. Most people, until the internet, wouldn't have had access to those storyboards or the script, and the cut scene doesn't appear anywhere else as far as I'm aware; neither in the NOW Comics adaptation nor the B.B. Hiller novelization...
#4938259
Boy this thread got derailed. Thanks though for all the excellent information posted, I will be diving into that. Thank you!

Sorry I said CGI about GB2... what I actually meant is "more special effects based" movie than GB1.

I still stand by what I said though.

The GB1 streams may not have been executed perfectly in each scene, but their essence was (much) more refined than GB2.

In GB1 the dark centers of the orange beams and the fact that the blue sparks shot outward and the orange beams inward when fired (confirmed by the Cleaning up the Town documentary released in 2019) really made them better than GB2 in my view.

Then again I am particularly detail oriented where I imagine the tactile gyroscopic feedback of each cyclotron revolution in the wand itself before and during firing. :cool:
#4938640
I agree the GB1 stream are more textured and elaborate but I prefer the GB2 stream for their lasso effect and erratic sine wave movement. There are white oval shaped particles that flow down the stream in pairs, something the GB1 stream didn't feature.

Perhaps this was because of Apogee took over for ILM when the workload got heavier, but the stream in some shots are a bit flat and the blue lightening has a fuzzy aura versus the very sharp edged kind they normally have. This can be seen when they are firing at the slime shell.

After the 1999 DVD release, I've noticed all subsequent releases have messed with the colors of the stream. They are orange with a yellow core with blue lightening with a white core. Those green slime double feature DVD's from 2005 they keep selling were the first to do this. Spook Central has a great comparison page on this and it shows.

One last thing I was grateful for regarding the GB2 stream was they refined the sound effect into something less random. Not only did they carry over from GB1 but the RGB sound effect was incorporated giving them full character. This can be heard most definitely when Louis opens fire on the slime shell.
#4938645
JA Slow wrote: August 27th, 2020, 3:12 pm I agree the GB1 stream are more textured and elaborate but I prefer the GB2 stream for their lasso effect and erratic sine wave movement. There are white oval shaped particles that flow down the stream in pairs, something the GB1 stream didn't feature.

Perhaps this was because of Apogee took over for ILM when the workload got heavier, but the stream in some shots are a bit flat and the blue lightening has a fuzzy aura versus the very sharp edged kind they normally have. This can be seen when they are firing at the slime shell.

After the 1999 DVD release, I've noticed all subsequent releases have messed with the colors of the stream. They are orange with a yellow core with blue lightening with a white core. Those green slime double feature DVD's from 2005 they keep selling were the first to do this. Spook Central has a great comparison page on this and it shows.

One last thing I was grateful for regarding the GB2 stream was they refined the sound effect into something less random. Not only did they carry over from GB1 but the RGB sound effect was incorporated giving them full character. This can be heard most definitely when Louis opens fire on the slime shell.
I don’t think Apogee did any particle beam effects. Pretty sure they just did the Ghost train and the Vigo breath attack after Venkman taunts Vigo.

The GB2 stream is cleaner, less busy and works better as a concept. It wins for the lasso effect alone. I love that. Just due to the fact that the beams are consistent. But like I’ve said, nothing beats the “crossing the streams” and firing at Mr. Stay Puft effect. The stuff at the hotel is just too messy and inconsistent.
#4938654
Michael Gross has said that a few late beam shots were sent out to other shops, though I'm not sure Apogee was one of them.

In addition to the ghost train and slit-scan Vigo breath, Apogee also handled the theater ghost, unused subway frog creature, and all the FX plate shots during the late NYC reshoot.
#4938655
Where did the frog fit into the movie? I've seen photos of the puppet but I wasn't sure if it was for the tunnel sequence or something else. There must be unused footage of it.

Likewise, what's the story of the 2 "river rats" credited to ILM? Another tunnel creature? Are there any photos or footage of these? I feel like there's a lot of unused material that hasn't been unearthed from this film and I wish they'd push more out for special features.
#4938656
I'm guessing the frog monster would've been in the Flip City montage.

The river rats may've been an evolution of, or early stage of the mutant pigeon concept conceived for the Flip City sequence, being turned monstrous by the presence of the pink slime.
#4938665
Yeah, it was part of the big ghost montage at the end. The Subway Ghost morphed quite a bit during development. I wish they would have stuck with the original idea of more humanoid ghosts entering the subway car at a stop.

The "River Rats" was just a gag credit, I'm guessing for the poor ILM crew that had to clean up during the river of slime shoot.

Edit- Storyboards! Slime-altered critter, much like the mink coat, and the park pigeons Kingpin mentioned earlier.

Image
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#4938670
d_osborn wrote: August 28th, 2020, 4:53 pm Yeah, it was part of the big ghost montage at the end. The Subway Ghost morphed quite a bit during development. I wish they would have stuck with the original idea of more humanoid ghosts entering the subway car at a stop.

The "River Rats" was just a gag credit, I'm guessing for the poor ILM crew that had to clean up during the river of slime shoot.

Edit- Storyboards! Slime-altered critter, much like the mink coat, and the park pigeons Kingpin mentioned earlier.

Image
See, stuff like this is why I Can’t wait for that GB2 documentary. This footage has to exist somewhere. So many deleted scenes, and deleted scenes with COMPLETED visual effects, and yet all Sony can manage to dig up is some half assed temp stuff. Where’s this Frog ghost? Where’s the ray possessed stuff? Where’s all the extra Slimer bits—that we’ve seen has completed composited effects!

Yeah the humanoid Ghosts entering the subway car is much more...Ghostbustery type humour. But I can see why they didn’t go with it. It’s kind of similar to the Titanic bit. Ghosts disembarking off the titanic, getting on a subway. In the same montage no less. I wonder if the reason given for the Frog ghost getting cut, that it turned out too comical due to the extras poor acting, is true OR if it was cut after the ghost train sequence was added. Too many underground bits perhaps.


PS. RIP Chadwick Boseman. What a talent. Gone too soon.
#4938678
RichardLess wrote: August 29th, 2020, 3:13 am Yeah the humanoid Ghosts entering the subway car is much more...Ghostbustery type humour. But I can see why they didn’t go with it. It’s kind of similar to the Titanic bit. Ghosts disembarking off the titanic, getting on a subway. In the same montage no less.
In the earlier drafts, it was way more "skeletal ghosts" than monsters. The whole montage was ghosts arriving in NYC... flooding in from the Jersey Turnpike, Titanic, Hindenburg, subway, etc.

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