[One time]

Can I pitch the retcon of all retcons?

What if, somehow within the narrative of the next movie, we find out that there is a supernatural reason people seem to forget the apocalyptic events of the first two movies? Maybe there is something connected to a rise in psychokinetic energy that can overload a part of the human brain related to memory? Sorta like how they always try to explain away one Doctor Who meeting another Doctor Who, for one sci-fi reason or another.

Dunno if it's needed but it might be kinda nice to throw in and TRY to explain how a giant Marshmallow walking through one of the biggest cities in the world was seemingly glossed over by the rest of the world.

Love it!

I think retcon is too big a word. It means "adjust, ignore, supplement, or contradict" a prior work.

In this case "flesh out" would be a better description. It would have to be done carefully and with nuance. Remember how Alien Covenant basically ended the Aliens franchise by saying that the mysterious alien creature Xenomorph was basically created by an angry man made robot? It killed all interest in the mysterious creature and movie goers had enough of seeing -yet another- group of people on a spaceship get eaten.

Same here. Introducing -yet another- cut out evil character who threatens the world who needs to be taken care of by the GB's is "been there done that" territory.

The best way would be to link back to the main premise of GB1 somehow and make the entire GB universe bigger.

[mrmichaelt]

The conclusion that I sort of settled on was 2 near apocalypses in a span of 5 years was suspicious enough for Egon to start looking hard into end of the world myths. He took another pass at the research he conducted in 1984 on Gozer and Shandor and eventually found more about the latter then dovetailed into his obsession with Summerville.

[One time]

The conclusion that I sort of settled on was 2 near apocalypses in a span of 5 years was suspicious enough for Egon to start looking hard into end of the world myths. He took another pass at the research he conducted in 1984 on Gozer and Shandor and eventually found more about the latter then dovetailed into his obsession with Summerville.

That's not enough for me. It's too constricted. Whatever research Egon would have done, Ray would have shadowed the data. They were a team. Any data Egon would find he would cross reference with Ray. Whatever Egon saw in the data, if it was objective, Ray would have seen it too. Unless some outside source was interfering with Egon's mind.

One reason the Sumerian God may have appeared (in GB1) was that humankind was too close to messing with the established order of nature. "Imagine the molecules in your body exploding at the speed of light". May have been too much for it to take in terms of human progression.

This could segway into a rival Sumerian God (not Gozer) insisting that humans be allowed to follow science no matter the outcome. Like Prometheus gifting fire to man.

A kind of battle between Gozer and another (actual) Sumerian God. A touching point seeing as Ghostbusters is about "Grooberson: science is pure, an absolute, and an answer to all the madness" which is also a social comment on the state of the current world.

[mrmichaelt]

Whatever research Egon would have done, Ray would have shadowed the data. They were a team. Any data Egon would find he would cross reference with Ray. Whatever Egon saw in the data, if it was objective, Ray would have seen it too.

Then the data started to become subjective and Ray started to disagree then what Kingpin said earlier.

[Dr.D]

Oh maybe not even subjective, but maybe Egon was making connections that Ray couldn't keep up with. No offence to Ray at all, but Egon always did seem levels ahead of him. Maybe Egon was getting so out there with the threads he was following that what seemed obvious to him seemed like complete insanity to the others. Couple that with a failing business and it's a perfect storm. Honestly, I'd love to see that dark comedy movie where Egon slowly goes kinda mad and steals Ecto-1.

[RichardLess]

Can I pitch the retcon of all retcons?

What if, somehow within the narrative of the next movie, we find out that there is a supernatural reason people seem to forget the apocalyptic events of the first two movies? Maybe there is something connected to a rise in psychokinetic energy that can overload a part of the human brain related to memory? Sorta like how they always try to explain away one Doctor Who meeting another Doctor Who, for one sci-fi reason or another.

Dunno if it's needed but it might be kinda nice to throw in and TRY to explain how a giant Marshmallow walking through one of the biggest cities in the world was seemingly glossed over by the rest of the world.

Love it!

I think retcon is too big a word. It means "adjust, ignore, supplement, or contradict" a prior work.

In this case "flesh out" would be a better description. It would have to be done carefully and with nuance. Remember how Alien Covenant basically ended the Aliens franchise by saying that the mysterious alien creature Xenomorph was basically created by an angry man made robot? It killed all interest in the mysterious creature and movie goers had enough of seeing -yet another- group of people on a spaceship get eaten.

Same here. Introducing -yet another- cut out evil character who threatens the world who needs to be taken care of by the GB's is "been there done that" territory.

The best way would be to link back to the main premise of GB1 somehow and make the entire GB universe bigger.

There doesn’t need to be any retconning. I have never, ever understood this idea that people don’t recognize what happened in GB1.

For years in GB2 I’ve read people going on about “oh well how come no one believes them after the first movie” and I just don’t get where these people get the idea from. How many people say they don’t believe in ghosts in the entire movie? 2? 3 including the kid?

It’s always been a criticism that’s made no sense. So a judge doesn’t believe in ghosts, that’s *exactly* what would happen in real life. Some would believe, some wouldn’t.


Look at our society now. There’s a huge movement of people that believe the earth is flat. That we lied about going to the moon. Seriously.

If there was shaky footage of a Stay Puft Marshmallow man walking….ask yourself how many people would believe it?

There’s some amazing UFO footage. amazing witness testimony. How many people truly believe?

And if you do want a retcon for why not everyone believes here’s an easy one: Ghosts don’t show up on camera. You can invent some technobabble reason about shutter speed, film exposure, nitrate film…

That’s why the GBs had to run Vigo’s pix through a special machine. Once they did that, boom. You saw his true self.

[Sav C]

Selenium attracts ghosts, and Big Selenium is afraid that if people believe in ghosts, they won’t be able to sell selenium anymore, and their mines won’t be profitable. They send “experts” (probably Walter Peck) on Fox News to claim that the ghostbusters are frauds, and blam, 40% of the public believes that the ghostbusters are hacks.

[RichardLess]

Selenium attracts ghosts, and Big Selenium is afraid that if people believe in ghosts, they won’t be able to sell selenium anymore, and their mines won’t be profitable. They send “experts” (probably Walter Peck) on Fox News to claim that the ghostbusters are frauds, and blam, 40% of the public believes that the ghostbusters are hacks.

I legit “lol’d” at “Big Selenium”.

[WCat2000]

Gozer is never mentioned during the phone call. Not even when he calls 10 years later. Ray just says Egon started warning everyone about the end of the world. So at first maybe Egon was not sure and became difficult to get along with.

However 10 years later you’d think he figured it out with the temple there but still does not specify it’s Gozer to Ray I guess. Just a rising storm. At this point I thought Ray could just go over to see what he was up to with all the equipment. Even out of pure curiosity.

He says he wanted to believe him but he was freaking him out. So it was mostly Egon’s behavior that caused him stay away and not get involved.

Ray not believing him was my only complaint but I do feel kind of better after rewatching it a few times. I still think they could have come up with a better reason altogether but explaining both sides a little more would help.

Egon continuing research on Gozer makes sense. They did not actually defeat/catch her in the first one. Just closed the doorway...but again it seems Egon did not figure out it was Gozer until he was in Summerville. We just need to know why he acted irate.

I also had the idea that he was threatened by a ghost or something but it would have to be another Gozer minion story wise. Not sure that’d work very well since this “new” minion would never appear. Introducing a Gozer rival just for the sake of explaining this is too complex and confusing. Especially when there should be a whole new villain by now.

[Kingpin]

Why didn't Ray check up on him? Or try to establish what happened?

That's assuming Ray and the guys knew where Egon went, or had the phone number before he called them.

(and GBTVG)

I wouldn't expect any call-backs to the game. To do so would risk confusion over something that really isn't compatible anymore.

Sorta like how they always try to explain away one Doctor Who meeting another Doctor Who, for one sci-fi reason or another.

*Eye twitch*

[Alphagaia]

Sorta like how they always try to explain away one Doctor Who meeting another Doctor Who, for one sci-fi reason or another.

*Eye twitch*

You want Kingpin to drop a donkey? Cause that's how you make Kingpin drop a donkey.

[Davideverona]

A thing I noticed. During the Ray's Occult phone call, Ray has slicked back Aykroyd's hair.

Then, when they show up in Summerville, he finally has Ray's hair.

[Dr.D]

As a man who has more than one hand-knitted Fourth scarf and a question mark umbrella beside me...I apologize for my transgression. Was speaking generally for those who may not have ventured inside a police box.

[An Invisible Bed]

Have ever gotten any official word about a timeline? I still find myself thinking about this from time to time even after years and it really bugs me if there's still no end date when the original GB went defunct.

Going by my gut, I feel like it happened in the early 2000s, about 20 years prior to Afterlife and while this is kind of dark and serious, the downfall may have had a lot to do with... 9/11, which has happened in the GB universe given we can see the twin towers in the original movies and the one world trade center in the new ones.

So perhaps, all the guys were traumatized and this is when Egon starts to have a mental breakdown and starts to no longer sound rational to his friends.

Yes, it's weird 9/11 happened in the Ghostbusters universe, but sometimes reality has to crash the party a bit, just like the fact that they had to write around Ramis' passing a bit awkward and arguably more "serious" at times than some fans think Ghostbusters is "supposed" to be.

[mrmichaelt]

Have ever gotten any official word about a timeline? I still find myself thinking about this from time to time even after years and it really bugs me if there's still no end date when the original GB went defunct.

Going by my gut, I feel like it happened in the early 2000s, about 20 years prior to Afterlife and while this is kind of dark and serious, the downfall may have had a lot to do with... 9/11, which has happened in the GB universe given we can see the twin towers in the original movies and the one world trade center in the new ones.

So perhaps, all the guys were traumatized and this is when Egon starts to have a mental breakdown and starts to no longer sound rational to his friends.

Yes, it's weird 9/11 happened in the Ghostbusters universe, but sometimes reality has to crash the party a bit, just like the fact that they had to write around Ramis' passing a bit awkward and arguably more "serious" at times than some fans think Ghostbusters is "supposed" to be.

No, but the closest thing to anything official was Jason Reitmen being quoted in The Art and Making of Ghostbusters: Afterlife. On page 23, he said, "If you had been born in the early 2000s, you probably don't even know about them, or maybe you've just heard briefly about it."

Then in the movie itself, Ray mentioned an actor bought up Tribeca. That's the best clue we got. IRL, Robert DeNiro is also famous for helping in revitalizing Tribeca starting in the 1990s and notably opening The Greenwich Hotel in 2008. Around the same time, the area was revitalized following the September 11 attacks in 2001. Ray did also mention Egon called him 10 years after he left New York. Another 10 years would be roughly in the timeframe of Afterlife. So you're on the right track.

Frozen Empire hardly offered anything more, just Janine mentioning vagrants broke into the firehouse and stripped all the copper in the 90s.

[An Invisible Bed]

Have ever gotten any official word about a timeline? I still find myself thinking about this from time to time even after years and it really bugs me if there's still no end date when the original GB went defunct.

Going by my gut, I feel like it happened in the early 2000s, about 20 years prior to Afterlife and while this is kind of dark and serious, the downfall may have had a lot to do with... 9/11, which has happened in the GB universe given we can see the twin towers in the original movies and the one world trade center in the new ones.

So perhaps, all the guys were traumatized and this is when Egon starts to have a mental breakdown and starts to no longer sound rational to his friends.

Yes, it's weird 9/11 happened in the Ghostbusters universe, but sometimes reality has to crash the party a bit, just like the fact that they had to write around Ramis' passing a bit awkward and arguably more "serious" at times than some fans think Ghostbusters is "supposed" to be.

No, but the closest thing to anything official was Jason Reitmen being quoted in The Art and Making of Ghostbusters: Afterlife. On page 23, he said, "If you had been born in the early 2000s, you probably don't even know about them, or maybe you've just heard briefly about it."

Then in the movie itself, Ray mentioned an actor bought up Tribeca. That's the best clue we got. IRL, Robert DeNiro is also famous for helping in revitalizing Tribeca starting in the 1990s and notably opening The Greenwich Hotel in 2008. Around the same time, the area was revitalized following the September 11 attacks in 2001. Ray did also mention Egon called him 10 years after he left New York. Another 10 years would be roughly in the timeframe of Afterlife. So you're on the right track.

Frozen Empire hardly offered anything more, just Janine mentioning vagrants broke into the firehouse and stripped all the copper in the 90s.

Early 2000s seems like the best guess, maybe they dissolved shortly before 9/11.

But it does bug me the new movies are so vague and wishy washy about the details to the most burning question fans have had and that's just what happened to the guys since 2?

Especially given it's so slavish devoted to fanservice otherwise, it even references Egon's Crunch bar, but when it comes to the biggest question it's just "uhhh, they went defunct at some point"

[mrmichaelt]

Early 2000s seems like the best guess, maybe they dissolved shortly before 9/11.

But it does bug me the new movies are so vague and wishy washy about the details to the most burning question fans have had and that's just what happened to the guys since 2?

Especially given it's so slavish devoted to fanservice otherwise, it even references Egon's Crunch bar, but when it comes to the biggest question it's just "uhhh, they went defunct at some point"

Yes, I agree. But yes, if you think about it, I'm not so sure the business survived the 90s. Perhaps they stopped being a full-time business in 1997 and a part time/on call gig for them as they settled into their new jobs, copper theft in 98 or 99, 9/11, Egon takes off for Summerville.

It definitely surprised me that Back in Town started with a 1 year time skip to them moving to NYC. Potentially they could have started right after AL or months later, them being trained by all or some of the originals and they fill in more details about the end of the Ghostbusters, i.e. flashbacks, while dealing with a case that pops up i.e. a few ghosts like Muncher weren't captured by the Trap Field so they're picking off some minor ghosts and inadvertently disturb a local legend that leads to a bigger battle. Then make the second one Back in Town. And Dead Man's the third. Hell, I'd be fine with a tie-in canon novel that gives that.

[venkmaniac84]

But it does bug me the new movies are so vague and wishy washy about the details to the most burning question fans have had and that's just what happened to the guys since 2?

Especially given it's so slavish devoted to fanservice otherwise, it even references Egon's Crunch bar, but when it comes to the biggest question it's just "uhhh, they went defunct at some point"

I mean, if we're going to play the game of plot accountability with Afterlife, let's not forget that there are "zero bars" of cell service in town in the opening moments of the movie which creates the plot armor that no one calls anyone for help until Phoebe goes to jail -- but at the same time the kid learns about her grandfather from YouTube videos of old VHS commercials. So, no cell service out there in Shandorville, but no problem with broadband Internet, VoIP calling, etc.

Afterlife is full of joyful easter eggs. It's also full of terrible plot contrivances to make the story work within the same constraints of Ghostbusting in 1984.

[Kingpin]

but at the same time the kid learns about her grandfather from YouTube videos of old VHS commercials. So, no cell service out there in Shandorville, but no problem with broadband Internet, VoIP calling, etc.

For the purposes of the plot, I can believe the family brought along their Wifi router from Chicago and plugged it into whatever phone equipment was available at Egon's farm (or even further, that tech genius Phoebe was able to whip something up).

[mrmichaelt]

Egon did have all those dishes and other devices on the roof and figured out how to pirate off someone's ISP. The no bar thing, given their financial status, I figured Trevor had a junk phone that was still on a 3G and the town was 4G only.

[venkmaniac84]

For the purposes of the plot, I can believe the family brought along their Wifi router from Chicago and plugged it into whatever phone equipment was available at Egon's farm (or even further, that tech genius Phoebe was able to whip something up).

Sure, but isn't it weird how none of the other kids in Summerville have no phones? Not even the Sheriff's daughter has a cell phone - despite working nights at a fast food place, needs her dad to pick her up and drive her around as established in the jail scene, etc.


1. Your WiFi Router is not your Cable or Broadband Modem, so unless you have an active broadband account, you're not streaming YouTube with that Wifi Router.
2. Unless you have a compound cable or broadband modem AND WiFi device -- in which case here in the U.S. it's owned by your broadband provider and not by you -- and taking it from the Chicago metro area to rural Oklahoma is more or less guaranteed not to work
3. Any existing "phone" equipment would be just that: telephone equipment in an old farm house with a max speed of 56K.
4. "Pheebs" is not reinventing telephony infrastructure by modifying anything in her own home, just like she's not reinventing Chicago's electrical infrastructure when she steals power from the neighbors to run a lathe.
5. The logic of "The 12 year old genius got them broadband Internet access using Grandpa's tech in the farmhouse where Janine could barely afford to keep the power on let alone pay the cable bill" is magical handwaving that says "It doesn't matter how they got Internet" in a movie premise that despite dealing with the paranormal, also attempted in its first two iterations to ground itself in some semblance of scientific reality.

But, I get it. It's 2026. "The magic grand daughter can temporarily kill herself and become a controllable ghost, but its not suicide, and she's not really dead, and you can become a ghost as soon as your corporeal functions are interrupted" is now our canon, and some of us are here to justify it.

Egon did have all those dishes and other devices on the roof and figured out how to pirate off someone's ISP. The no bar thing, given their financial status, I figured Trevor had a junk phone that was still on a 3G and the town was 4G only.

See, this is how you get your "Amblin" feeling retro movie. You give it plot armor of "cell phones don't exist in this narrative."

In rural Oklahoma, this probably also goes the other way. It would be more likely he would show up to a rural town with a 4G phone and the town would not have yet had 4G rollout. Except let's say 5G, since the movie is set in 2020, and 4G was old hat long by then. 5G rollout is what people were melting down about when they weren't melting down about vaccines.

What would be a more plausible explanation is that Trevor has some prepaid-my-mom-has-bad-credit cell phone, and its network doesn't operate in Nowheresville. But then you have to ask yourself: do you *ever* see a cell phone again in the movie after the car ride, from anyone in town?

[mrmichaelt]

But, I get it. It's 2026. "The magic grand daughter can temporarily kill herself and become a controllable ghost, but its not suicide, and she's not really dead, and you can become a ghost as soon as your corporeal functions are interrupted" is now our canon, and some of us are here to justify it.

Actually, Vigo and Janosz made spirit walking canon in 1989.

Sure, but isn't it weird how none of the other kids in Summerville have no phones? Not even the Sheriff's daughter has a cell phone - despite working nights at a fast food place, needs her dad to pick her up and drive her around as established in the jail scene, etc.

See, this is how you get your "Amblin" feeling retro movie. You give it plot armor of "cell phones don't exist in this narrative."

In rural Oklahoma, this probably also goes the other way. It would be more likely he would show up to a rural town with a 4G phone and the town would not have yet had 4G rollout. Except let's say 5G, since the movie is set in 2020, and 4G was old hat long by then. 5G rollout is what people were melting down about when they weren't melting down about vaccines.

What would be a more plausible explanation is that Trevor has some prepaid-my-mom-has-bad-credit cell phone, and its network doesn't operate in Nowheresville. But then you have to ask yourself: do you *ever* see a cell phone again in the movie after the car ride, from anyone in town?

All good points, venkmainiac. I like the prepaid hand me down bad cell phone idea. Hmm, I'd honestly have to rewatch the movie but yeah, cell phones weren't really in people's hands in Afterlife. The last time I remember seeing a cell phone was when Podcast was recording Phoebe walking up to the Farmhouse. Probably don't see any "modern" tech until the sheriff's office front desk. But yeah, lack of seeing them adds to the Amblin vibe they were going for.

[venkmaniac84]

All good points, venkmainiac. I like the prepaid hand me down bad cell phone idea. Hmm, I'd honestly have to rewatch the movie but yeah, cell phones weren't really in people's hands in Afterlife. The last time I remember seeing a cell phone was when Podcast was recording Phoebe walking up to the Farmhouse. Probably don't see any "modern" tech until the sheriff's office front desk. But yeah, lack of seeing them adds to the Amblin vibe they were going for.

Holy smokes. I forgot he had that cell phone. I thought it was just a camera. Perhaps I was too distracted by that shiny jump drive. But this now begs the question: Why the hell do they wait until Phoebe is arrested to call Ray if they have Podcast's cell phone?!

[mrmichaelt]

But this now begs the question: Why the hell do they wait until Phoebe is arrested to call Ray if they have Podcast's cell phone?!

Even smart people can get in over their head. I mean, imagine if Peter cooperated with Peck from the start and took him down to the basement and introduced him to everyone else and answered his questions to his satisfaction?

[Light em Up]

Given Grooberson's comments about the last ghost sighting, my initial guess was that the company folded around 91-92. But if we take the Spengler Journal into account, it states that Egon took off after they had lost the firehouse. It's very possible they did continue on in a much smaller capacity for a time. But given their financial state and the lack of ghosts, it doesn't feel like it could have been for too much longer. They had lost their containment unit by that time. Would they have been able to replace it? Or, maybe they just kept the traps stacked in the corner, lol? Just so many questions that we may never get the answers to.

I agree the comics could have done more to fill in the gaps. Ghost Corps did say they were working on ideas that would help bridge some of that, but granted that was years ago now.

[mrmichaelt]

Given Grooberson's comments about the last ghost sighting, my initial guess was that the company folded around 91-92. But if we take the Spengler Journal into account, it states that Egon took off after they had lost the firehouse. It's very possible they did continue on in a much smaller capacity for a time. But given their financial state and the lack of ghosts, it doesn't feel like it could have been for too much longer. They had lost their containment unit by that time. Would they have been able to replace it? Or, maybe they just kept the traps stacked in the corner, lol? Just so many questions that we may never get the answers to.

Good point, his 'no ghost sighting in 30 years comment' does pin it in that 91-92 time frame. Ghost activity dying down after they beat Vigo makes sense. Yeah, instead of what I theorized '97, '91 or '92 makes sense with them taking the business from full time to part time/on call and them each getting jobs and thus that comment about the copper vandals fits a bit better. The firehouse was less occupied so it was easy for vandals to break in and steal the copper anywhere between the mid-late 90s. 9/11. Then "the actor" starts buying up property in Tribeca. They lose the Firehouse. Egon takes off in late '01/early '02. Somehow the Containment Unit is left untouched for 20 years and doesn't blow up again (that part idk). Maybe the same method they talked about in FE, emptying the unit and keeping ghosts in traps until they can buy back the Firehouse? Store them in the Ray's Occult garage? So the traps can hold a ghost that long? Firehouse becomes a Starbucks. Winston buys it back in 2021 after Gozer is trapped. Spenglers and Gary move in in June 2022.

I agree the comics could have done more to fill in the gaps. Ghost Corps did say they were working on ideas that would help bridge some of that, but granted that was years ago now.

Well, the bridge I figure is showing them moving to New York, their 1st case in NY, how they're in business (the big bad in Back in Town, Madame Malveaux causes a surge that spikes activity again) for 2022-2024 leading into FE.

[Light em Up]

Somehow the Containment Unit is left untouched for 20 years and doesn't blow up again (that part idk).

The containment unit during all that time is a whole can of worms. I don't think they should have shown it still operational at the end of Afterlife. Perhaps if they had more time to think about it while planning Frozen Empire, they could have come up with a more satisfying explanation.

Well, the bridge I figure is showing them moving to New York, their 1st case in NY, how they're in business (the big bad in Back in Town, Madame Malveaux causes a surge that spikes activity again) for 2022-2024 leading into FE.

I agree, they do a good job of joining Afterlife with Frozen Empire. I was referring to answering a few questions about the events post-GB2. Gil had said around 2022 that they had plans for fleshing out that time period. Apologies for not adding the proper context.

[mrmichaelt]

The containment unit during all that time is a whole can of worms. I don't think they should have shown it still operational at the end of Afterlife. Perhaps if they had more time to think about it while planning Frozen Empire, they could have come up with a more satisfying explanation.

Agreed, in retrospect, I would have been good with AL ending on Winston and Ecto-1.

On second thought, I don't think a trap could hold a ghost for decades per my idea. Maybe something like the Containment Unit was always on its own power supply and they agreed to keep paying its bill and it eventually ended up on Winston footing the electric bill all these decades without telling the new owner. And as a precaution, they sealed up the entrance to the basement and built a wall or whatever over it. Eh, that wouldn't work. The owner(s) would have seen a basement in the blueprints and start excavating. And concealing a room is illegal. Ergh.

I was referring to answering a few questions about the events post-GB2. Gil had said around 2022 that they had plans for fleshing out that time period. Apologies for not adding the proper context.

Oh, ok. The convo at 1:12:11 from the 2024 interview with Yes Have Some.
https://youtu.be/R7i4YAP8D38?t=4308

[Kingpin]

And concealing a room is illegal. Ergh.

This is why we need to be very flexible in applying real-world logic to the world of Ghostbusters.
By rights, the guys should've been arrested, prosecuted and shut-down in 1984 by the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission.

[mrmichaelt]

This is why we need to be very flexible in applying real-world logic to the world of Ghostbusters.
By rights, the guys should've been arrested, prosecuted and shut-down in 1984 by the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission.

Fair. And technically desecration of an American monument. I suppose sealing and hiding the basement and Winston secretly paying the ECU's electric bill is still plausible.